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jam070406
Guest
Christians don’t follow an eye for eye, tooth for tooth attitude. We follow the Prince of Peace. How can we pray for peace in the Liturgy on Sunday and then advocate bombing people on Monday?
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Because they are doing stuff we don’t like.
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scipio337
Guest
I don’t favor bombing anyone. I support sanctions. But that still doesn’t absolve the fact that Iran’s leaders have called for Isreal to “disappear” (passive), should be “erased” (active), and any number of threats. To deny this is obfuscatory jingoism, and I provided several links to the contrary.
I don’t view Iran as “just like any other country, who are we to say they shouldn’t have nukes”, their signator to the NPT aside.
I still pray for peace, and the Iranian people.
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pismopal
Guest
You will have to explain to me how the" going into Iraq for oil " thing shakes down. We have been to that place twice…the second time for a decade and I have not seen any improvement at the pump. I have a novel idea…any representative who votes against exploring our own energy potential should be sent home to go to work for a living…provided they can find a job.
PS When the Chinese need something they go after it themselves…or they buy it from politicians like Sandy Berger or Clinton. It is cheaper than R&D.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
Exactly.You will have to explain to me how the" going into Iraq for oil " thing shakes down. We have been to that place twice…the second time for a decade and I have not seen any improvement at the pump. I have a novel idea…any representative who votes against exploring our own energy potential should be sent home to go to work for a living…provided they can find a job.
It won’t shake down for us, the Chinese got the rights to produce it. We just did all the work securing it.
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Funny how that works. American blood paid for oil for China.
America’s foreign policy for you.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
Doesn’t it make you feel like a gambling addict whose in debt to a pretty rough crowd?Funny how that works. American blood paid for oil for China.
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JustaServant
Guest
So, Gingrich said today that Ron Paul is “stunningly dangerous” to the U.S.”
Okay…lemmie make sure I’m in sync with the “new reality” neo-cons are pushing…
Peace…dangerous…:hypno:
War…safe…:hypno:
Peace…scary…:hypno:
War…not scary…:hypno:
Okay, gotcha.
Okay…lemmie make sure I’m in sync with the “new reality” neo-cons are pushing…
Peace…dangerous…:hypno:
War…safe…:hypno:
Peace…scary…:hypno:
War…not scary…:hypno:
Okay, gotcha.
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
That about sums it all up.So, Gingrich said today that Ron Paul is “stunningly dangerous” to the U.S.”
Okay…lemmie make sure I’m in sync with the “new reality” neo-cons are pushing…
Peace…dangerous…:hypno:
War…safe…:hypno:
Peace…scary…:hypno:
War…not scary…:hypno:
Okay, gotcha.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
How about not cherry-picking from among the wars that Israel has been caught up in.
How about listing all the wars … including the ones where Egypt and Syria attacked first. And how about listing the times that Israel gave BACK territory that it seized and suffered for it.
**How about **showing Israel’s almost undefendable borders. [How few miles across is Israel?]
How about listing the times the Soviets got intimately involved to tilt things their way.
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JustaServant
Guest
“War is a punishment for sin”
Our Lady of Fatima.
Our Lady of Fatima.
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Roy5
Guest
Monte and others
** Every other war involved a ‘preventive’ attack by Israel,. **The neocons and their allies, of course, produce reasons for these attacks. Hitler declared that Poland was killing Germans in 1939. North Korea declared that South Korea had attacked in 1950. Such distortions of history are commonplace. The South certainly considered the North the aggressor in 1861, And we could go and on. History, like politics and religion, produces many different and debatable interpretations.
I don’t have the time nor the desire to outline the long history of Israeli relations with her neighbors, especially for those who aren’t interested in knowing the real truth. Read The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy and it’s all spelled out for you by two scholars in the field who have no axe to grind.
** This is not to put the whole blame on Israel.** Terrorism against Israel has been outrageous, too. A few Palestinian radicals who don’t have bombers and tanks and other major weapons have unwisely used other means to fight for what they regard as freedom and justice. I would have preferred the non-violent methods of a Gandhi or a King. But the figures tell the story. When Israel most recently invaded Gaza, for example, I don’t recall the precise numbers but maybe 10 Israeli soldiers lost their lives while perhaps 1000 Palestinians, largely civilians, lost theirs. The figures are available.
** Our policy should be - and should have been from the beginning - genuinely pro-Israel AND pro-Palestinian. **Had we the guts we could have forced a fair settlement that would have guaranteed Israel’s security but also provided some justice to the Palestinians. Instead, because of domestic politics in this country, plus tragic media bias, plus “money talks”, we have only favored Israel leading ultimately to increasing hatred of US among millions of Muslims (and others), resulting in such disasters as 9-11 and continuing turmoil. Much of the world wonders: “If the US is so interested in democracy and justice, why does it support continuing occupation in the Holy Land, where Palestinians are denied basic rights?”
** Both GOP and Democratic administrations have for years consistently asked Israel not to keep building settlements on what little Palestinian land remains, but the settlements continue to be built. **But, because of Israeli influence in Congress especially (Buchanan called Congress ‘occupied territory’ in its obeisance to Israel), we simply continue to bankroll Israel, veto UN resolutions calling for justice for Palestinians. etc. Terrorism against us is wrong, of course, but our policy has helped incite it and must change.
** In conclusion, I would not want Paul as president for a variety of other reasons, but I do have some sympathy for his anti-war stance.** Haven’t we had enough killing of our own young men and women, plus tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? Doesn’t Christ ask us to be peacemakers? I could never EVER vote for candidates like Santorum who talk as though they would be ready to bomb Iran as soon as they take office. It’s time for the USA, from a position of strength, to work sincerely and earnestly for reconciliation. Iran certainly doesn’t want war as that ancient nation would be pulverized by our superior military capacity. But it also feels a natural need to protect itself from what it sees as Israeli and American belligerence. It’s time for diplomacv, not war propaganda.
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**There was only one war that Israel clearly did not begin**. That was the so-called Yom Kippur War in 1973 when Egypt sought to gain its land back in the Sinai peninsula.
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**Hm! When did Syria attack first? **True, there was the 1948 conflict when the Israelis first claimed an independent state and quickly occupied considerable territory. One can argue at least two viewpoints on that complicated question. Later, Israel gobbled up the Golan Heights region, part of Syria, and has since incorporated it into Israel. Catholics in Syria, incidentally, appear to favor the present regime because it has treated them fairly, and Syria has been a refuge for thousands of Catholics fleeing Iraq after we 'liberated' Iraq! The Syrian civil strife is complex, further complicated by the fact that Assad, who runs a secular state, is a member of a minority Islamic sect which I believe is know as the Alawites. We are foolish to involve ourselves in so many of these conflicts in the Middle East where it isn't always clear who are the good or the bad guys.** This is not to put the whole blame on Israel.** Terrorism against Israel has been outrageous, too. A few Palestinian radicals who don’t have bombers and tanks and other major weapons have unwisely used other means to fight for what they regard as freedom and justice. I would have preferred the non-violent methods of a Gandhi or a King. But the figures tell the story. When Israel most recently invaded Gaza, for example, I don’t recall the precise numbers but maybe 10 Israeli soldiers lost their lives while perhaps 1000 Palestinians, largely civilians, lost theirs. The figures are available.
** Our policy should be - and should have been from the beginning - genuinely pro-Israel AND pro-Palestinian. **Had we the guts we could have forced a fair settlement that would have guaranteed Israel’s security but also provided some justice to the Palestinians. Instead, because of domestic politics in this country, plus tragic media bias, plus “money talks”, we have only favored Israel leading ultimately to increasing hatred of US among millions of Muslims (and others), resulting in such disasters as 9-11 and continuing turmoil. Much of the world wonders: “If the US is so interested in democracy and justice, why does it support continuing occupation in the Holy Land, where Palestinians are denied basic rights?”
** Both GOP and Democratic administrations have for years consistently asked Israel not to keep building settlements on what little Palestinian land remains, but the settlements continue to be built. **But, because of Israeli influence in Congress especially (Buchanan called Congress ‘occupied territory’ in its obeisance to Israel), we simply continue to bankroll Israel, veto UN resolutions calling for justice for Palestinians. etc. Terrorism against us is wrong, of course, but our policy has helped incite it and must change.
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**As for giving territory back: yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza.** They did not 'give it back' as Gaza does not control is coastline, air space, etc. It is rather like a large prison. Israel; simply didn't want to have further responsibility (include huge financial cost) to be in charge of the most crowded sliver of land in all the world - the Gaza strip. The Gazans elected Hamas, which was unfortunate, though if you know history Israel fostered Hamas at the beginning because it was anti-Arafat. A case of unintended consequences. Israel returned the Sinai, an ancient part of Egypt, in return for peace with Egypt, etc. Why doesn't Israel free the greatest part of Palestine, the West Bank, instead of grabbing more and more of it? **God bless all peacemakers,** and his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier.
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scipio337
Guest
Well, Roy5, its at least refreshing for someone to come out and just use the “NeoCon” surrogate for “Jew”. Take a close look at “casus belli”, 1968. If kicking out UN peacekeepers, closing the Straits of Tiran and massing 100,000+ troops at your border doesn’t do it, nothing will. As far as the “Israel Lobby” goes, see “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” and meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
The amount of rationalization you have for “a few Palestinian radicals” (their widespread popular support notwithstanding) is indeed surprising.
If you had studied the situation, you would see that new nations form down ethnic and religious lines in a post colonial collapse. Look at what happened with the fall of the British Raj. Where would India be today, if Pakistan had barred the door to 14 million Muslims, like the Arab League did with their Palestinian Arab bretheren?
The rest of your post is so full of misconceptions and outright exaggerations, I’m not sure it warrants any more of a response.
The amount of rationalization you have for “a few Palestinian radicals” (their widespread popular support notwithstanding) is indeed surprising.
If you had studied the situation, you would see that new nations form down ethnic and religious lines in a post colonial collapse. Look at what happened with the fall of the British Raj. Where would India be today, if Pakistan had barred the door to 14 million Muslims, like the Arab League did with their Palestinian Arab bretheren?
The rest of your post is so full of misconceptions and outright exaggerations, I’m not sure it warrants any more of a response.
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scipio337
Guest
Because that would require honestly assessing the issue. See above.
I at least enjoy his new use of the phrase “NeoCon”. We don’t have to wonder if it is a code word for “Jew”, anymore.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Well … Israel “gobbled up” the Golan Heights. [did you know that?] [sarcasm]
No mention, either, of the Intifada.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/intifada.html
Or of the continuous terrorist bombings that have been going on for years. And G*d forbid that Israel should respond.
Or of the daily rocket attacks.
Or of the tunnels from Gaza.
Israel can only lose once, and then they are history.
Israel is only a few miles wide.
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Roy5
Guest
Some of these counter-arguments have merit, but my question would be: do you want peace and justice in the Holy Land or continual conflict?
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The United States, as the only real friend of Israel in the world (I wonder why she doesn't have more friends), could bring peace to the Holy Land if we were to stop the continual Israeli policy of grabbing more and more land on the West Bank. If Israel is genuinely committed to peace, explain to me why she keeps doing that. Obviously she plans to eventually incorporate the entire area into Israel.
If you believe, as so many Protestant evangelicals believe, that Israel is protected by God, relax. No problem. But I happen to think that God lets us work these things out. Sadly, our government under Republicans and Democrats has been hamstrung because of false propaganda that warps the total picture and has shaped public opinion.
How do you suggest that the Palestinians seek justice? Don't you have any concept of what it means to lose your land as they have? What if the Mexicans become the majority in parts of the USA - say, California, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Nevada and Colorado - and then declare themselves separate from the USA because just 170 years ago those areas were part of Mexico. I presume we would say: fine. Yes, you deserve this land. We'll gladly move and let you take it over.
The Intifadas came from injustice. Most of the Palestinians fought for justice with rocks against tanks - like the brave people of Beijing, Budapest, and elsewhere.
But I sense that there is nothing to be gained from further dialogue on this issue. Like too many Americans, you have made up your minds, will refuse to open your minds to another viewpoint, and that's it. I hope the Ron Paul campaign at least brings to the attention of the American people the folly of our war-like behavior in the Middle East, imperiling our own security along with that of Israel.
If we are wise friends of Israel, we will insist on justice for the Palestinians. The Israeli government today is like someone drunk driving a car. Friends don 't let them drive. Many Israelis, of course, agree with me. Better yet, I agree with them. I've been in Israel on pilgrimage four times and have spoken with many Jews and Arabs there (many of them Christians, by the way) who crave peace through negotiation rather than continuing to build settlements.
I will try to resist addressing this topic again. It seems to be a waste of time because most posters appear to have their ill-informed opinion carved in stone. Sad.
God bless the Israelis and the Palestinians, and may the Holy Land be blessed with peace, justice, happiness, forgiveness, and love.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
Do me a favor, let’s keep this civil. I will not call you a liar if you will not call me one. I’m simply trying to understand the need that people say we have to bomb or starve a country full of Jews and Muslims before we actually go in and do it.
I’m trying to find translations, some of our own politicians have said one thing, you say another, some college professors agree with them, some agree with you.
Using google translate and babylon online translation software, I’m not getting a very good result compared to this report you provided.
And it translated it to this:
Some days I get 100 emails from CAF alone, some slip through the cracks.
It says that when they say regime, they mean all of the Jews in Israel. First of all, what about the Jews in their own state and second of all, we say regime change all of the time in the US, what’s the difference?
No, to be a Ron Paul supporter, you need to be able to not believe everything you read. see or hear. Especially if it comes from a politicians. I went through several lines of translation and could not get a clear translation on any of those quotes. Nothing provided in context that could convince me that Iran wishes to kill all Jews.
The pictures are disturbing, but do we not see this from other countries about our own? Should we bomb them as well, if we haven’t already?
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bbarrick8383
Guest
It would seem to me that if one wanted to protect an ally surrounded by potential enemies, he would prevent those potential enemies from becoming a threat by doing business with them. Get them a line of profit flowing in exchange for a good and they will do anything to keep that line open.
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ebonykawai
Guest
We are infuriated! 
This would be me and my hubby. We hated Bush’s foreign policy and specifically, that administration’s policy on torture, and so voted for what we hoped would be something better. Peace Prize??? PLEASE. Turned out to me more of the same. “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” We’re praying Ron Paul makes it, he will definitely get our vote.
The question I have is, what if he doesn’t make it?? I’ll think we’ll end up not voting if that happens. What will you other Paulies do?
This would be me and my hubby. We hated Bush’s foreign policy and specifically, that administration’s policy on torture, and so voted for what we hoped would be something better. Peace Prize??? PLEASE. Turned out to me more of the same. “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” We’re praying Ron Paul makes it, he will definitely get our vote.The question I have is, what if he doesn’t make it?? I’ll think we’ll end up not voting if that happens. What will you other Paulies do?
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
I am not a “Paulie”, but rather think of myself as a paleo-Constitutionalist and I am as appalled as you at the warmongering of both parties. I am not longer represented in the federal government, so if Ron Paul doesn;t get the nod, I think I may sit this one out.We are infuriated!
The question I have is, what if he doesn’t make it?? I’ll think we’ll end up not voting if that happens. What will you other Paulies do?
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