Ron Paul Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Pork_Roll said:
Absolutely. I just talked about this with my very orthodox priest about how the GOP which agrees with Catholics on life issues, are anti-catholic on many other issues. What I’ve really come to realize is that there are Catholics like George Weigel and others who many of us looked up to but really have confused many good intentioned Catholics on issues concerning war and economics. JPII and BXVI have both spoke out against pre-emptive war and have called the invasion of Iraq unjust.

What many people on these forums don’t like to admit is that the GOP are only slightly better than the democrats in promoting catholic values. Some will go so far as to act as if you are morally obligated to vote republican. Where republicans completely are at odds with church teaching, they claim that they are free to make up there own minds, like on issues concerning economics and the environment and death penalty, much like pro-abortion catholic politicians.

Here are some things that the church teaches which goes against big business pro-war republicans:
subsidiarily
just wage (minimum wage)
protection of environment (solar panels of roof of Vatican)
dialogue between nations instead of conflict
international coordination and authority
disarmament of nuclear weapons
unions and solidarity
defensive military (not offensive)

The truth is, the church’s teaching on social issues and the environment is way “left” of the GOP.
Click to expand...
You have to remember this forum is heavily Republican.
 
ishii said:
As I said before, if Romney means (and I think he does) that we should have a military strong enough to discourage our enemies from challenging, then I am in full agreement. If you look at history, it is weakness that invites challenges from enemies and war. What were France and England doing in the 20’s and 30’s? Disarming. What did American do in the 20’s and 30’s? Disarm. We were weak and vulnerable and our enemies knew that. That’s partly why they thought they could get away with what they did. A weak, underfunded military invites war.
Click to expand...
I would say this idea that you can build an army strong enough that no one would challenge not only goes against all our experience but is incompatible with Christian theology. Rome was in its day a mighty force. That did not stop poor peasant peoples from rising up against it. The mighty Roman army with its great weapons, incredible supply system and tremendous discipline was challenged by ‘barbarians’. In US history the farmers of early America were able to defeat the great British Army. An army so great it will never be challenged would be unique.

Regarding Christian theology Satan rebelled against God who is the ultimate power of the universe. Man, including me, which is nothing compared to God everyday rebels and challenges the authority of God. If this is true towards God how could any mere mortal construct a power that would go unchallenged?
ishii said:
I don’t think its quite that simple. When you have enemies and regimes that call you the Great Satan, then I am not sure following the Golden Rule will change their attitude. Ron Paul’s referring to the rescue of the Iranians by the U.S. military as more what we should be doing reminded me of the foreign policy of McGovern wing of the Democrat party from the 60’s on: profoundly and dangerously out of touch with the reality and nature of our enemies.
Click to expand...
We are not to follow the Golden Rule at our pleasure. We are commanded to obey God and he created this rule. The great work of Christianity is in showing the world how to deal properly with enemies. Showing the proper respect due to any of God’s creatures is fundamental to Christianity.

If a government will abandon the basic rules of God with regards to enemies what is to stop them from doing the same to their own people? The greatness of the US system, inherited from the British, is that we have the rule of law which is to be followed for everyone in all cases. Many politicians and many people are all too eager to abandon this in the name of supposed efficiency. But the thing about moral principles is that the only time they truly make a difference is when things aren’t easy. Following the Golden Rule when it is good for you is no moral discipline at all.
 
exnihilo said:
Mitt Romney got a loud cheer for declaring he wanted to create a military no one would challenge (apparently this isn’t enough).

I do think we can now say the GOP hates the Golden Rule. In tonight’s debate Ron Paul mentioned our foreign policy should adhere to the Golden Rule which was followed by loud boos. I’d love to say I was shocked.
Click to expand...
I know. I only caught this latest debate towards the end. But I was tuned in when Romney was cheered for that. References to killing people overseas was also getting applause it seemed to me. And then when the Golden Rule was booed, I have to say it still shocked me even more.
 
CMatt25 said:
I know. I only caught this latest debate towards the end. But I was tuned in when Romney was cheered for that. References to killing people overseas was also getting applause it seemed to me. And then when the Golden Rule was booed, I have to say it still shocked me even more.
Click to expand...
Apparently the AMerican people think its okay to treat other people as dirt while expecting to be treated like royalty themselves. 🤷
 
BirdPreacher
Code: 
 I like your chart, which emphasizes how much the main faiths have in common.

 There is one question I would raise. I include Unitarianism as the most liberal wing of Protestantism, theologically to the 'left' of the mainline Protestant churches which generally are very tolerant of differing viewpoints. Channing and Parker, the two most influential Unitarian pioneers in the US, certainly viewed themselves as Protestants. As I recall, nine of the first eleven parishes established by the Pilgrims/Puritans became Unitarian. When I attend a Unitarian Church I certainly feel a liberal Protestant atmosphere around me. 

 In fact, visiting a daughter over Christmas, I attended a UU Church Christmas Eve. The carols were sung, the gospels passages were read, etc. The one difference that was noticeable was the presence of a Menorah upfront, recognizing the Hannakah observance of the (recent) Jewish tradition. I added the word 'recent' because Hannakah only came to the fore as a defense against the overwhelming Christmas atmosphere. It is not of much importance on the Jewish calendar otherwise. Like some other Jews holydays - Passover, Purim - it seems to be rooted more in a political event than in a religious one. As you must know, Christian-Jewish interfaith couples often find common ground in Unitarianism.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Apparently the AMerican people think its okay to treat other people as dirt while expecting to be treated like royalty themselves. 🤷
Click to expand...
It was not Paul’s mention of the Golden Rule that got booed, it was his “blame America first” statements preceding that. He did that all night and the South Carolinians had had enough by that time in the debate.

Of course the Paulbots cannot see that because their hero does no wrong.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It was not Paul’s mention of the Golden Rule that got booed, it was his “blame America first” statements preceding that. He did that all night and the South Carolinians had had enough by that time in the debate.

Of course the Paulbots cannot see that because their hero does no wrong.
Click to expand...
Paulbots…

If you search the internet, you will find many of them…
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It was not Paul’s mention of the Golden Rule that got booed, it was his “blame America first” statements preceding that. He did that all night and the South Carolinians had had enough by that time in the debate.

Of course the Paulbots cannot see that because their hero does no wrong.
Click to expand...
Thanks for calling us mindless drones. I guess the same could be said of GOPbots. 🤷
 
Unfortunately, the GOP candidates (except Paul) sound like classical warmongers. Obama doesn’t seem any wiser. Matt. 5:9.
Click to expand...
Exactly. What is a real shame is that Santorum is so ignorant of his faith to support these preemptive wars. I think the unfortunate reality is that all fundamentalists, and not just Islamic ones, are dangerous. But Santorum has tried to reach out to these people with his defend Isreal and bomb Iran mantra. But what you said about Ron Paul’s idealism is spot on too. That’s why the youth are attracted to him.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It was not Paul’s mention of the Golden Rule that got booed, it was his “blame America first” statements preceding that. He did that all night and the South Carolinians had had enough by that time in the debate.
Click to expand...
You can watch the video and hear the boos come on loud when Paul mentions the Golden Rule. They were very clearly booing the idea that the golden rule should apply to US foreign policy.

Blame America first is a pejorative phrase. Dr. Paul merely mentions that America does some things bad and people boo. One thing I am sure of from my Christian faith is that no one, not one, is perfect. The mark of a strong, confident man is to accept valid criticism. The same is true for nations. To be unwilling to accept criticism and admit fault is the way of the cowardly and corrupt. If you truly love something you will love it despite its faults. The America many love is some ideal that doesn’t and couldn’t exist. Many Americans seem to love the phantom perfect America which really means they love nothing that is truly America.
 
exnihilo said:
You can watch the video and hear the boos come on loud when Paul mentions the Golden Rule. They were very clearly booing the idea that the golden rule should apply to US foreign policy.

Blame America first is a pejorative phrase. Dr. Paul merely mentions that America does some things bad and people boo. One thing I am sure of from my Christian faith is that no one, not one, is perfect. The mark of a strong, confident man is to accept valid criticism. The same is true for nations. To be unwilling to accept criticism and admit fault is the way of the cowardly and corrupt. If you truly love something you will love it despite its faults. The America many love is some ideal that doesn’t and couldn’t exist. Many Americans seem to love the phantom perfect America which really means they love nothing that is truly America.
Click to expand...
I couldn’t have said this better myself. TO be honest, I think Jefferson, Adams, and Washington would be embarrassed by what this country has become.
 
exnihilo said:
You can watch the video and hear the boos come on loud when Paul mentions the Golden Rule. They were very clearly booing the idea that the golden rule should apply to US foreign policy.

Blame America first is a pejorative phrase. Dr. Paul merely mentions that America does some things bad and people boo. One thing I am sure of from my Christian faith is that no one, not one, is perfect. The mark of a strong, confident man is to accept valid criticism. The same is true for nations. To be unwilling to accept criticism and admit fault is the way of the cowardly and corrupt. If you truly love something you will love it despite its faults. The America many love is some ideal that doesn’t and couldn’t exist. Many Americans seem to love the phantom perfect America which really means they love nothing that is truly America.
Click to expand...
But what country elects a leader that clearly despises what it stands for? We’ve had enough of being shamed by our current president, who calls us “lazy” at best. People want their leader to be PROUD of what their country is and what it stands for, and not kowtowing to other nations. No one is saying America is perfect but we haven’t done everything wrong either. I for one am sick and tired of hearing politicians readily admit our faults and mistakes and never mention the fact that America is the most generous nation on the planet, always there to help other nations, freely giving, and I DO NOT MEAN the government but private donations. People volunteer their own time and funds to rush to the rescue when other nations experience natural disasters. I could go on and on but I am tired of hearing how bad my country is. I love this country and ALL of its people and I want someone who unabashedly loves me too.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But what country elects a leader that clearly despises what it stands for? We’ve had enough of being shamed by our current president, who calls us “lazy” at best. People want their leader to be PROUD of what their country is and what it stands for, and not kowtowing to other nations. No one is saying America is perfect but we haven’t done everything wrong either. I for one am sick and tired of hearing politicians readily admit our faults and mistakes and never mention the fact that America is the most generous nation on the planet, always there to help other nations, freely giving, and I DO NOT MEAN the government but private donations. People volunteer their own time and funds to rush to the rescue when other nations experience natural disasters. I could go on and on but I am tired of hearing how bad my country is. I love this country and ALL of its people and I want someone who unabashedly loves me too.
Click to expand...
Me too. I also want a President who will treat the people of other nations as we Americans expect to be treated by them.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But what country elects a leader that clearly despises what it stands for? We’ve had enough of being shamed by our current president, who calls us “lazy” at best. People want their leader to be PROUD of what their country is and what it stands for, and not kowtowing to other nations. No one is saying America is perfect but we haven’t done everything wrong either. I for one am sick and tired of hearing politicians readily admit our faults and mistakes and never mention the fact that America is the most generous nation on the planet, always there to help other nations, freely giving, and I DO NOT MEAN the government but private donations. People volunteer their own time and funds to rush to the rescue when other nations experience natural disasters. I could go on and on but I am tired of hearing how bad my country is. I love this country and ALL of its people and I want someone who unabashedly loves me too.
Click to expand...
You just described Ron Paul, a man of the people and not special interests.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It was not Paul’s mention of the Golden Rule that got booed, it was his “blame America first” statements preceding that. He did that all night and the South Carolinians had had enough by that time in the debate.
Click to expand...
I agree.

Dr. Paul had some good moments in the debate - especially his military versus defense spending explanation when challenged that his policy would cut bases in South Carolina. That was a silly conclusion to draw by the questioner, since Ron Paul has only talked about cutting overseas operations. While I don’t agree with the extent of the cuts, he makes very good points.

That said, his long, run-on drone about foreign policy lost me. It exhibited a form of verbal diarrhea that I’ve seen him employ far too often. His military isolationism (aka non-interventionalism) isn’t a good course for our country. He is not presidential material IMO.
 
exnihilo said:
You can watch the video and hear the boos come on loud when Paul mentions the Golden Rule. They were very clearly booing the idea that the golden rule should apply to US foreign policy.

Blame America first is a pejorative phrase. Dr. Paul merely mentions that America does some things bad and people boo. One thing I am sure of from my Christian faith is that no one, not one, is perfect. The mark of a strong, confident man is to accept valid criticism. The same is true for nations. To be unwilling to accept criticism and admit fault is the way of the cowardly and corrupt. If you truly love something you will love it despite its faults. The America many love is some ideal that doesn’t and couldn’t exist. Many Americans seem to love the phantom perfect America which really means they love nothing that is truly America.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But what country elects a leader that clearly despises what it stands for? We’ve had enough of being shamed by our current president, who calls us “lazy” at best. People want their leader to be PROUD of what their country is and what it stands for, and not kowtowing to other nations. No one is saying America is perfect but we haven’t done everything wrong either. I for one am sick and tired of hearing politicians readily admit our faults and mistakes and never mention the fact that America is the most generous nation on the planet, always there to help other nations, freely giving, and I DO NOT MEAN the government but private donations. People volunteer their own time and funds to rush to the rescue when other nations experience natural disasters. I could go on and on but I am tired of hearing how bad my country is. I love this country and ALL of its people and I want someone who unabashedly loves me too.
Click to expand...
None that I know of if the country has free democratic elections. I recall President Obama saying something about us having been lazy as a nation in attracting business to come here. Not that we as a people are lazy.

Of course you don’t mean the government. That’s one of the reasons that while I see some good in Dr Paul’s foreign policy, I could never support him on domestic poicy and the extremely limited role of government he foresees. Not my cup of tea nor in my DNA.
 
Roy5 said:
BirdPreacher
Code: 
 I like your chart, which emphasizes how much the main faiths have in common.

 There is one question I would raise. I include Unitarianism as the most liberal wing of Protestantism, theologically to the 'left' of the mainline Protestant churches which generally are very tolerant of differing viewpoints. Channing and Parker, the two most influential Unitarian pioneers in the US, certainly viewed themselves as Protestants. As I recall, nine of the first eleven parishes established by the Pilgrims/Puritans became Unitarian. When I attend a Unitarian Church I certainly feel a liberal Protestant atmosphere around me. 

 In fact, visiting a daughter over Christmas, I attended a UU Church Christmas Eve. The carols were sung, the gospels passages were read, etc. The one difference that was noticeable was the presence of a Menorah upfront, recognizing the Hannakah observance of the (recent) Jewish tradition. I added the word 'recent' because Hannakah only came to the fore as a defense against the overwhelming Christmas atmosphere. It is not of much importance on the Jewish calendar otherwise. Like some other Jews holydays - Passover, Purim - it seems to be rooted more in a political event than in a religious one. As you must know, Christian-Jewish interfaith couples often find common ground in Unitarianism.
Click to expand...
Roy, just to offer a possible reason why Unitarianism is separate from Christianity in the chart Bird shared about the Golden Rule Dr Paul mentioned. If the chart means Unitarian Universalism, in more recent yrs I’ve seen estimates of up to 90% of Unitarian Universalists do not consider thermselves Christian. But I don’t know for certain if that would be why.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top