Ron Paul Thread

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PatrickSebast said:
If Iran is going to actively pursue nuclear power regardless of what the UN or anyone else says it seems like the wiser decision might just be to send some delegates in to give them a hand and closely monitor the situation from the inside. Sanctions on Nuclear Power against all nations in an age where the flow of information regarding such technologies is almost impossible to restrict seems foolish at this point. Insisting on Nuclear secrets and restrictions may have worked great 40 years ago, but if the UN isn’t willing to launch attacks killing hundreds of thousands to stop nations from researching nuclear power openly then there isn’t much point in denying it to any nations.
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Bingo.

We live in a nuclear world. Time will come when ever nation that wants a nuke will have a nuke. You can’t bottle up the nuclear genie any more than you can bottle up gun powder or industrialization. We neede to develop policies for containing the threat of nuclear conflict rather than relying on policies to prevent the development of nuclear power.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ron Paul is exactly correct when it comes to foreign policy. Non-interventionism follows the advice of the founding fathers and is in the best interests of our national security. His analysis of of the Iranian situation is the only sane one that I have heard among the Republicans.

There really is no difference between the Republican candidates (sans Paul) and Obama when it comes to foreign policy: both sides embrace an unconstitutional and unjust interventionist foreign policy that is bankrupting our country and actually making us less safe in the long run. If Obama doesn’t provoke a war with Iran before the next election, the establishment Republican candidate certainly will. Even that Santorum character, who professes to be a Catholic, seems to have been bought by the neoconservatives. What a shame. And the one man (Ron Paul) who is actually speaking the truth has been demonized and marginalized at every turn. The war drums are beating again.
 
There is zero evidence that Iran is even close to a nuclear weapon. You never actually hear the word evidence in any mainstream media report.

It’s always “An unamed source said…” 'Experts fear…" 'Sources inside the pentagon voiced concern…"

No actual evidence. We’ve been hearing they are one year away form a bomb since 2003.
 
The Straits of Hormuz are not inside Iran. Unless I’m mistaken, it is international waters.
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This clarifies somewhat, but it still remains a complex question:

International Maritime Law and the Strait of Hormuz

Historically, a nation’s territorial waters were said to extend for 3 miles from shore. After the Second World War this was reviewed and the current distance accepted by most countries is 12 nautical miles. The waters inside this 12 mile limit are broadly considered to be an extension of the nation that forms its coastline. However, foreign ships can pass through these waters as long as they don’t linger unnecessarily or cause aggravation while there. This is termed the right of ‘innocent passage’. Foreign warships are usually required to minimise their military profile in order to reduce their potential threat to the coastal state.

While passing through straits, such as the Strait of Hormuz, that run through territorial waters, ships in transit have more rights. In particular, warships can maintain an appropriate degree of combat-readiness.

Seems reasonable? Unfortunately in the Strait of Hormuz and the waters to the west of it, shipping lanes run close to and in some areas through Iranian territorial waters. Under international maritime law the Iranians are entitled to monitor this traffic but the traffic, including warships, is entitled to unimpeded transit. As the US and Iran view each other with great mistrust, the potential for conflict is high.

Two things complicate the matter further. The first is that the USA has not ratified (formally agreed to abide by) the relevant legislation on international maritime law: the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). The second is that, according to UNCLOS, if there are islands lying off a nation’s coast then the 12 miles extend from the outermost island.

The area of sea around the Strait of Hormuz contains several islands, for many of which the ownership is claimed by both Iran and the United Arab Emirates, a pro-western country. Whoever owns the islands will own the territorial waters around them, according to international maritime law as it is usually interpreted.
 
I am highly in favor of the US and Israel eradicating their terrorist leadership, their military infrastructure, and anything remotely related to their becoming nuclear capable. The level of naivete on the part of certain members of our society is absolutely mind blowing to me. They sponsor terror, they practice terror, they openly call for the destruction of Israel and the West, and yet people still think they can reason with them! Really? Being a peaceful nation is admirable but being foolish is not. It is right to fight evil. Ron Paul is severely out of touch with the realities of the world. With his non interventionist ideology we wouldnt have fought Germany in WWII and the Jewish nation(May God love them and protect them!) would most likely have been completely exterminated. Is this what we want now?
 
Ron Paul is severely out of touch with the realities of the world.
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Nonsense. Ron Paul opposes unconstitutional and unjust militarism and interventionism. That’s not the same thing as opposing a strong national defense. He puts America first rather than Israel first. Actually, he is the most pro-Israel candidate out there - he will not stop Israel, the most powerful state in the Middle East, from defending her interests in any way she saw fit. When Israel attacked the Osirak reactor, almost the entire U.S. Congress voted to condemn the act and the Reagan administration opposed the action. Ron Paul was one of the few dissenters: he voted against the condemnation and in favor of Israel’s right to self-determination.

And who said anything about staying out of World War II. There were clear aggressors (Japan and Germany both declared war on us) and the war was waged by the proper civil authority. You are confusing non-interventionism with isolationism.

As to your mention of terrorism, remember that terms like “terrorism” and “terrorist” are loaded labels applied by besiged regimes to delegitimize enemies. It was a fateful mistake for Bush to have declared a “war against terrorism.” That made it a war that can’t be won. The war against terrorism cannot be won or lost; nor does it ever end. It becomes perpetual war for perpetual peace. We might as well send the Marines to conquer lust, annihilate greed, capture the sin of pride. Terrorism is almost impossible to prevent unless its root causes are seriously and systematically adressed. Ron Paul is the only presidential candidate that has demonstrated an intellectually respectable understanding of the root causes of Middle Eastern terrorism. Is terrorism evil? Certainly. While terrorism must be condemned, it will be used again and again. For terrorism often triumphs. Sherman and the Union armies crushed the south, setting it back a century. But they were victorious and are lionized. Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended a world war. But if terrorism is the deliberate slaughter of noncombatants, to break the will of the enemy, were not Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention Tokyo and Dresden) terrorism on a monumental scale? After World War II, the tactics used by the Japanese and Germans were used by Zionists against the British, by the Viet Minh and Algerian FLN against the French, and by Mandela’s ANC against the white government of South Africa. The IRA, the Irgun, the Stern Gang, the Viet Minh, the FLN, the Mau Mau, the ANC all used terror and all prevailed; if the cause is just in Western eyes, Western leaders appear more tolerant of the methods used and the allies who are welcome. Ron Paul seems to understand the cold hard fact that terrorism is simply the continuation of war by other means. And, as Clausewitz reminds us, war is the continuation of politics by other means. Middle Eastern terrorists are motivated by politics (by our interventionist foreign policy in their region) not by our democratic principles (as the neoconservative and liberal warmongers proclaim).
 
oletommyboy said:
I am highly in favor of the US and Israel eradicating their terrorist leadership, their military infrastructure, and anything remotely related to their becoming nuclear capable. The level of naivete on the part of certain members of our society is absolutely mind blowing to me. They sponsor terror, they practice terror, they openly call for the destruction of Israel and the West, and yet people still think they can reason with them! Really? Being a peaceful nation is admirable but being foolish is not. It is right to fight evil. Ron Paul is severely out of touch with the realities of the world. With his non interventionist ideology we wouldnt have fought Germany in WWII and the Jewish nation(May God love them and protect them!) would most likely have been completely exterminated. Is this what we want now?
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I heard the same thing with Iraq. 8 years later no WMD’s, a trillion dollars wasted and the country is still in turmoil. Why stop with Iran? We should continue with Uganda, Lybia, Somalia and Pakistan.
 
gilliam said:
COUNCIL BLUFFS, Iowa — Ron Paul accused President Barack Obama on Thursday of offering suspected terrorists fewer legal protections than Nazi war criminals were given.

The Republican presidential candidate laced into Obama for authorizing the CIA-led drone strike that killed Anwar al-Awlaki, an Al Qaeda leader, in Yemen this September. He reiterated his previously stated position that al-Awlaki’s American citizenship entitled him to due process.

“As bad as they were, you know even Adolf Eichmann finally when he was captured he was taken to Israel. Israel gave him a trial. What did we do with the Nazis — war criminals — after World War II? They got trials. Yeah, and they got what was deserving: they got hung,” Paul told more than 700 voters during a campaign speech at a convention center in western Iowa.

“This year has not been good for the cause of personal liberty because about a year ago the president announced there are so many bad people around that he has to really go after them to protect us.

Read more: politico.com/news/stories/1211/70958.html#ixzz1i39kOKHd
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More important, I think, is the fact that Amy Goodman, the ultra-liberal on NPR and Democracy, Now!, criticized Obama for significantly increasing the drone attacks, which were minimal under the Bush administration. If Paul is the GOP nominee, which I don’t believe he will be, he may very well siphon off not only Independents but some progressive Democrats who don’t agree with Obama’s foreign policy or think Obama is not standing up to the Republicans enough on domestic issues.
 
kubark said:
Ron Paul was one of the few dissenters: he voted against the condemnation and in favor of Israel’s right to self-determination.

Self determination is different from aiding your greatest ally.

And who said anything about staying out of World War II. There were clear aggressors (Japan and Germany both declared war on us) and the war was waged by the proper civil authority. You are confusing non-interventionism with isolationism.

Iran declared war on us in 1979 and repeatedly since. Iran has declared war on Israel so many times its a waste of time to count.

As to your mention of terrorism, remember that terms like “terrorism” and “terrorist” are loaded labels applied by besiged regimes to delegitimize enemies.

Loaded? Terrorists kill innocent people to force upon them some type of political ideology. Last I checked, not one government official from either the US or Israel has ever strapped on a bomb and blown up a single person in an Islamic country so that they force their ideologies upon them. Israel and the US work everyday to try to broker peace with these people. No one tries to delegitimize the powers that are in control in these countries. If you see it that way then we surely have different world views.

But if terrorism is the deliberate slaughter of noncombatants, to break the will of the enemy, were not Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention Tokyo and Dresden) terrorism on a monumental scale?

No! Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets due to weapons and munitions being manufactured there by an enemy, that through no fault of our own decided to attack us unprovoked.

Ron Paul seems to understand the cold hard fact that terrorism is simply the continuation of war by other means.

I agree that that is his belief, I just do not agree with him.

Middle Eastern terrorists are motivated by politics (by our interventionist foreign policy in their region) not by our democratic principles (as the neoconservative and liberal warmongers proclaim).

We certainly do not agree here!
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Ghosty said:
Amen, Ron Paul, amen.

I would love to see Obama forced to answer these kinds of things in the campaign, and Ron Paul is the only candidate who would challenge him on them.

Peace and God bless!
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Amen, Ghosty. I wonder where Mr. Santorum and the other so-called conservatives stand on this issue? I haved a feeling they put their loyalty to neoconservatism ahead of the Constiution and the advice of the founding fathers.

Ron Paul is the only candidate that has a chance of beating Obama in the general election, and neoconservatives know it. That’s why editorials have been popping-up in the print media and blogosphere over the past week or so attempting to discredit and marginalize Ron Paul as a “lunatic” and as “dangerous” and as a “fringe candidate” while at the same time they cozy up to the establishment Republicans. Neocons would rather support someone like the mediocre moderate Mitt Romney, who will lose to Obama in a general election, rather than support Ron Paul, who would actually defeat Obama. The same could be said for Newt and Santorum. Neither will beat Obama, but necons would rather welcome Obama for a second term than welcome a Ron Paul presidency.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
[When Hitler and Hirohito and Noreiga declared war on the United States, we sure took it seriously.]
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Which is why the ENTIRE WORLD should take Iran’s threats to “wipe Israel off the map” seriously! As Christians (of all denominations) we have a sacred responcibility to defend our Jewish brothers and sisters and to defend the Israeli Nation Under God. The US Government has worked very hard to try and take God out of our country, Israel may be the last true Nation Under God. If that is so, we must defend her.

Here is a link to a book by Rabbi Eric Carlson of a Messianic Congregation: zionsake.org/ | zionsake.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84

Isaiah 62:1 “For Zion’s Sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet."
 
kelleyclip said:
Which is why the ENTIRE WORLD should take Iran’s threats to “wipe Israel off the map” seriously! As Christians (of all denominations) we have a sacred responcibility to defend our Jewish brothers and sisters and to defend the Israeli Nation Under God. The US Government has worked very hard to try and take God out of our country, Israel may be the last true Nation Under God. If that is so, we must defend her.

Here is a link to a book by Rabbi Eric Carlson of a Messianic Congregation: zionsake.org/ | zionsake.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84

Isaiah 62:1 “For Zion’s Sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet."
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Can you do me a favor? Find a link with the proper translation where an Iranian official, preferably Ahmadinejad, said they are aiming to wipe Israel off the map.
 
meltzerboy said:
More important, I think, is the fact that Amy Goodman, the ultra-liberal on NPR and Democracy, Now!, criticized Obama for significantly increasing the drone attacks, which were minimal under the Bush administration. If Paul is the GOP nominee, which I don’t believe he will be, he may very well siphon off not only Independents but some progressive Democrats who don’t agree with Obama’s foreign policy or think Obama is not standing up to the Republicans enough on domestic issues.
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Living in a very Blue state I can already see Paul cutting in to Obama’s base. It would be very interesting to see the response to Paul’s attacks on these policies if he becomes the nominee. None of the other GOP candadites will strike Obama were he is weakest among his own.

Peace and God bless!
 
oletommyboy

Do us a favor and separate the quotes so one can tell your comments from the other posters.

I don’t understand why everyone get’s so excited to defend a country with many nuclear weapons and a pretty decent military against a country whose people can’t get gas for a car, has no nukes, and whose military from what I can find is less than half the size of the Israeli’s.

Why is Israel treated like a victim that’s waiting to be victimized, by an aggressor that’s mostly bark and very little bite. If Israel want’s to do something about it, they can.
 
bbarrick8383 said:
oletommyboy

Do us a favor and separate the quotes so one can tell your comments from the other posters.

I don’t understand why everyone get’s so excited to defend a country with many nuclear weapons and a pretty decent military against a country whose people can’t get gas for a car, has no nukes, and whose military from what I can find is less than half the size of the Israeli’s.

Why is Israel treated like a victim that’s waiting to be victimized, by an aggressor that’s mostly bark and very little bite. If Israel want’s to do something about it, they can.
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I apologize for the format of that response. I am new to posting in internet forums and I obviously didnt do it correctly.
 
oletommyboy said:
I apologize for the format of that response. I am new to posting in internet forums and I obviously didnt do it correctly.
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It’s ok, you can left click and highlight the original posters text and then in the reply section there is a button that looks like: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/editor/quote.gif

Click that and it will wrap quotes around whatever you highlighted making it easier for others to read.

If you want to break down another post and reply to parts of it at a time, I suggest you highlight it and quote it, otherwise many people wont even bother reading it.
 
I’ve lived 50 years on this planet, and I hope I have gained some wisdom in that time, Lord knows I have a ways to go. My wife and I are “old souls”. our parents were older when we were born, so we both relate to the values of a generation now rapidly disappearing.
I suppose they saw the ‘war fever’ themselves when they were young. Boys going off to war with all the enthusiasm of going off to summer camp.
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did (so my dad related), this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby.
The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2, torture, drone attacks on civilians who “might” be terroists, detaining people without trial indefinately. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. The fact that Catholics support it, is tragic.
Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
If we go down this path of attacking Iran, I truly fear we are starting something that could very easily get out of control, and become a global tragedy.
Our Lady at Fatima said war is a punishment for sin. We are now coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions…
Maybe some of us need to turn off Bill O’Rielly and pick up our Rosary beads.
 
JustaServant said:
I’ve lived 50 years on this planet, and I hope I have gained some wisdom in that time, Lord knows I have a ways to go. My wife and I are “old souls”. our parents were older when we were born, so we both relate to the values of a generation now rapidly disappearing.
I suppose they saw the ‘war fever’ themselves when they were young. Boys going off to war with all the enthusiasm of going off to summer camp.
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did (so my dad related), this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby.
The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2, torture, drone attacks on civilians who “might” be terroists, detaining people without trial indefinately. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. The fact that Catholics support it, is tragic.
Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
If we go down this path of attacking Iran, I truly fear we are starting something that could very easily get out of control, and become a global tragedy.
Our Lady at Fatima said war is a punishment for sin. We are now coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions…
Maybe some of us need to turn off Bill O’Rielly and pick up our Rosary beads.
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i read this forum all the time and I couldn’t agree more with your whole post.
news outlets throughout the world are not informtion outlets,they are propoganda machines, more people need to wake up.
 
JustaServant said:
I’ve lived 50 years on this planet, and I hope I have gained some wisdom in that time, Lord knows I have a ways to go. My wife and I are “old souls”. our parents were older when we were born, so we both relate to the values of a generation now rapidly disappearing.
I suppose they saw the ‘war fever’ themselves when they were young. Boys going off to war with all the enthusiasm of going off to summer camp.
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did (so my dad related), this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby.
The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2, torture, drone attacks on civilians who “might” be terroists, detaining people without trial indefinately. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. The fact that Catholics support it, is tragic.
Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
If we go down this path of attacking Iran, I truly fear we are starting something that could very easily get out of control, and become a global tragedy.
Our Lady at Fatima said war is a punishment for sin. We are now coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions…
Maybe some of us need to turn off Bill O’Rielly and pick up our Rosary beads.
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GREAT post! I could not agree more.

God bless!
 
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