Rosary during a Ordinary Form Mass?

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I would much rather meet my just Judge one day, having taken issue with one opinion that Paul VI offered in one sentence of Marialis cultis , than to have challenged him on what he taught in Humanae vitae .

Isn’t this the definition of a cafeteria catholic? It is certainly not what I expect from somebody who says he accepts what the Church teaches.

I don’t think this rises to the level of Church teaching. There is no question of doctrine or morality here, nor does Paul VI suggest that it is sinful. He seems merely to be expressing an opinion or a wish.

And is Paul VI suggesting, then, that Leo XIII was wrong to say the rosary during Mass?

 

[Dovekin]

In answering this question I have been trying to explain the principle that justifies the teaching. It is important to know that Mass is an opportunity to act with Christ in the most important action of his life. The Rosary may help us understand that action better, but at the Eucharist we join in the action.

Once you know the principle, the choice is yours. You have to decide if your private understanding is more important than acting with the other members of the Body of Christ. You may decide it is. No one is going to say you cannot pray the rosary during mass; we do not know who you are or why you are doing it.

You may want to discuss this with a priest if you are unsure what to choose. Advice tailored precisely to your circumstances is not what you should expect when you ask here. More likely you will get a discussion of principles, sometimes accounts of what others do. But you know what is best for you.

 

[Dovekin]

I would much rather meet my just Judge one day, having taken issue with one opinion that Paul VI offered in one sentence of Marialis cultis , than to have challenged him on what he taught in Humanae vitae .

How many sentences in Humanae Vitae condemn artificial birth control? I would be surprised if it is more than one.

St Paul VI’s career was dedicated to teaching the preeminent importance of participating in the Eucharist. He sought to strengthen the Church by bringing people to Christ who is present with us in the Liturgy. That is his one opinion that was reflected in nearly everything he did.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

How many sentences in Humanae Vitae condemn artificial birth control? I would be surprised if it is more than one.

That is the thrust of the entire encyclical. Paul VI wrote it largely in response to the advent of the birth control pill. And it reflected perennial and constant moral teaching on the malice and evil of contraception. He didn’t come up with anything that wasn’t already believed by the teaching Church.

 

[stpurl]

Isn’t there a difference, even in encyclicals, with the Pope offering an opinion regarding one of many options, and with the Pope setting forth a definitive teaching?

Not every word in every encyclical is an infallible teaching.

Further, in something like oh say Laudatio Si, when the Pope offers his opinions regarding things like air conditioning, there are both graded responses. For some people in some areas, the use of air conditioning is absolutely essential to them and the goods they are preparing; it is a question not of ‘comfort’ but of necessity. For others, air conditioning is so rarely needed that it isn’t even a requirement. It is a real luxury there.

And then there are all the little things in between; the people who ‘could’ eschew A/C for themselves, but whose small children or elderly parents have a need, particularly during heat events. The people who look perfectly healthy but have underlying health conditions which A/C can help keep from worsening. Etc. Etc.

I don’t think HSD is a Cafeteria Catholic for choosing to hold a differing opinion—opinion, mind you—regarding one opinion in a sentence by a Pope. Anymore than somebody might choose to hold a differing opinion regarding whether, say, it was prudent for Pope St. John Paul II to kiss the Koran. The action is over and done with; the intentions I think were honorable, but I also think taking the long view they were mistaken. But that does not mean I think that the Pope was sinful! People can disagree even with Papal opinions and not be sinful or ‘Cafeteria’ Catholics.

 

[Jen7]

How many sentences in Humanae Vitae condemn artificial birth control? I would be surprised if it is more than one.

The entire thing. Artificial birth control is gravely sinful.

 

[Jen7]

So the problem with praying the rosary at mass (be it NO or TLM) is that it takes our attention away from this, making the mass something that’s happening around us rather than something we’re participating in.

But I feel it HELPS me focus on what’s going on in the Mass…

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Isn’t there a difference, even in encyclicals, with the Pope offering an opinion regarding one of many options, and with the Pope setting forth a definitive teaching?

Not every word in every encyclical is an infallible teaching.

Further, in something like oh say Laudatio Si, when the Pope offers his opinions regarding things like air conditioning, there are both graded responses. For some people in some areas, the use of air conditioning is absolutely essential to them and the goods they are preparing; it is a question not of ‘comfort’ but of necessity. For others, air conditioning is so rarely needed that it isn’t even a requirement. It is a real luxury there.

And then there are all the little things in between; the people who ‘could’ eschew A/C for themselves, but whose small children or elderly parents have a need, particularly during heat events. The people who look perfectly healthy but have underlying health conditions which A/C can help keep from worsening. Etc. Etc.

I don’t think HSD is a Cafeteria Catholic for choosing to hold a differing opinion—opinion, mind you—regarding one opinion in a sentence by a Pope. Anymore than somebody might choose to hold a differing opinion regarding whether, say, it was prudent for Pope St. John Paul II to kiss the Koran. The action is over and done with; the intentions I think were honorable, but I also think taking the long view they were mistaken. But that does not mean I think that the Pope was sinful! People can disagree even with Papal opinions and not be sinful or ‘Cafeteria’ Catholics.

Thank you for your good defense. I really couldn’t care less whether anyone defends me or not — I am nobody — but I am very happy to see the truth defended. The comments of Pope Francis about air conditioning are an excellent example. The pope is the vicar of Christ on earth. When there is a dispute that can’t be settled any other way, his word is law. And when he runs counter to what is the majority opinion on a matter, such as with the birth control commission that was assembled before he promulgated Humanae vitae, likewise, his word is law.

But none of this means that his every utterance, his own preferences, and his opinions on this matter or that, are binding on all the faithful under pain of sin. Where they conform to what has always been taught, it is not as though it is coming directly from him, he is only passing on the tradition he has been given. The proper role of the pope is as a custodian of Catholic faith and doctrine. The Catholic Faith is not born anew with the election of a new pontiff. In more stable eras, it was utterly irrelevant who the Pope was. It wasn’t the kind of thing people thought about. The Faith was the Faith, and that was that. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get back to that?

In short, I’m not about to unplug the air conditioner, open the windows, and rely on cross-ventilation, just because of something the Pope said in an encyclical. Mechanically chilled air is not intrinsically evil. Contraception is.

 

[umamibella]

Thankyou. I was hesitant to reply or engage further , you have stated it all well

 

[CradleRC58]

The confetior is prayed soon after Mass begins. It it we here the name of Mary. And she is named honorably as " blessed Mary , ever virgin".

We may even hear of her in the gospel. Either way, again we hear her name as “the Virgin Mary” as we genuflect or bow during the Credo. " by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man "

In The Canon, we hear Mary named as " in the unity of Holy Fellowship we observe the memory, first of all, of the glorious and ever Virgin Mary , mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ "

Those little old ladies we hear of, praying their rosaries during the Mass, may not have been doing so due to a lack of understanding of the Mass. In those days they were schooled by nuns. It’s highly doubtful that they were ignorant of the prayers of the Mass. Nor were they illiterate.

And there were missals. Just as we today can use a missal to follow a Mass in Latin, so could they.

There were also prayer books. And many of those prayer books included the order of the Mass in them. As well as the likely reason they prayed the Rosary during Mass. The Eucharistic Rosary.

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[CradleRC58]

Here are the prayers/ meditations on one of the Mysteries prayed during the Eucharistic Rosary.

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[twf]

I always pray a decade during Communion time. I don’t see an issue with that. Especially as many people take time for personal prayer before or after communion.

 

[stpurl]

I can see (and have done this) praying a rosary in reparation when present at an egregiously illicit or invalid Mass. In the case of the former, we are fulfilling our obligation of attendance at a ‘valid but illicit’ Mass with our physical presence and as much participation as one’s conscience permits. So if there is no Gloria (and it’s not Lent or Advent) and one prays a decade in its place whilst the priest speaks of his last trip out fishing, I feel that focusing on said decade is more active participation that chortling at ‘the one that got away’. Similarly, if the Creed is omitted, praying another decade there or praying the introductory Credo, our Father, and three Hail Marys there seems more in line than perhaps listening to another song with questionable theology. And if the Eucharistic prayers are distorted and adlibbed, and one chooses to remain in one’s seat during communion and pray a decade or two of the rosary instead, that likewise seems to be active participation at Mass as one focuses on Jesus.

Whereas during the TLM the rosary is done in participation with what is done by the priest, and at the OF it is done more to correct or to participate in something that is NOT done by the priest, it can still be fine.

I think the problem is that people thought that in the TLM/EF little old ladies prayed the rosary because they were ignorant of ‘what went on’, and that since in the OF it is ‘obvious’ what goes on that praying the rosary ‘over’ that would be as rude as speaking when other person is already speaking.

But since there are places in the OF where the people already are asked to pray silently with no ‘limit’ to what they can pray for, or if things are illicit to start, praying the rosary or any other prayers THERE certainly would not be wrong.

 

[Dovekin]

I can see (and have done this) praying a rosary in reparation when present at an egregiously illicit or invalid Mass.

Yes, the rosary can be prayed during a Tridentine Latin Mass. is that what you mean?

if there is no Gloria (and it’s not Lent or Advent) and one prays a decade in its place whilst the priest speaks of his last trip out fishing, I feel that focusing on said decade is more active participation that chortling at ‘the one that got away’.

The Homily is part of the Liturgy and is highly recommended, for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an explanation of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of
the listeners.
GIRM 65

if the Creed is omitted, praying another decade there or praying the introductory Credo, our Father, and three Hail Marys there seems more in line than perhaps listening to another song with questionable theology.

The Christian faithful who come together as one in expectation of the Lord’s coming are instructed by the Apostle Paul to sing together Psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles (cf. Col 3:16). Singing is the sign of the heart’s joy (cf. Acts 2:46). Thus St. Augustine says rightly, “Singing is for one who loves,” and there is also an ancient proverb: “Whoever sings well prays twice over.”
Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of peoples and abilities of each liturgical assembly.
GIRM 39-40

if the Eucharistic prayers are distorted and adlibbed, and one chooses to remain in one’s seat during communion and pray a decade or two of the rosary instead, that likewise seems to be active participation at Mass as one focuses on Jesus.

While the Priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion Chant is begun, its purpose being to express the spiritual union of the communicants by means of the unity of their voices, to show gladness of heart, and to bring out more clearly the “communitarian” character of the procession to receive the Eucharist. The singing is prolonged for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.
GIRM 86

The General Instruction on the Roman Missal seems to have a different idea of participation from yours. There are plenty of ways to participate I guess.?

 

[stpurl]

The GIRM also assumes the priest is ‘saying the black and doing the red’ along with the laity. If he isn’t. . .well, then, the laity has to follow the GIRM as best they can. In order to accomplish the praiseworthy ‘communion’ requested, there has to be an actual communion.

 

[bob4]

Might it be a good idea to ask your pastor this?

 

[Xarto]

I always thought that people praying during the Extraordinary Form was because they didn’t understand what was going on so it was a prayer they could do

 

[Anesti33]

I always thought that people praying during the Extraordinary Form was because they didn’t understand what was going on so it was a prayer they could do

No, actually it is because there is little to do in terms of outward participation. The EF has no responses to make, and one spends most of one’s time kneeling in silence.

It is natural that personal prayer developed as a result.

 

[stpurl]

That is very much a mid 20th century supposition which was generated in order to make it appear that a change to the TLM was ‘necessary’. It is not fact, and to their credit, the majority of people today recognize it was a mistaken thought at best and a somewhat disingenuous attempt to push forward a particular agenda at worst.

“Active participation’ is somehow, since the 1960s, a code for the idea that the liturgy has to ‘involve’ the laity with near constant movement and talk, although until the 1950s, even with Pope Pius XII ‘active participation’ meant that the laity was expected to participate on many levels, in movement (despite the so-called constant kneeling, there were many ‘sit-stand-kneel’ movements in the TLM), in speech and in reading (not every TLM is ‘low’ or mostly silent, and the vast majority of people had access to a missal in which the Latin was on ‘one side’ and the vernacular on the others. I possess my aunt’s French/Latin missal and my mother’s English/Latin missal to this day), in spiritual participation with contemplation, prayer of all kinds, the contemplation of sacred images, the smell of incense, etc.

Is this to say that there never existed in 1960 a 14 year old Catholic male who, in his teenage hubris had already determined how ‘boring’ the TLM was and who could be easily convinced that only novelty and ‘relevance’ and ‘vernacular’ would change that boredom to wonder and awe? Sure such existed. As with any others in the massively and colossally selfish group of ‘children to young adults’, since the constant for nearly all in said group is intense self-interest coupled with a distaste for ‘their parents’ interests, all that was needed in the 1960s, since secular society was already bursting to repudiate “the Man” and everything ‘traditional and old’, young Catholics were ripe pickings for the charismatic guitar playing hipsters who just wanted to ‘get back to the original ‘way’, get rid of the ‘fancy schmantzy ritzy titzy’ old lady stuffed shirt church and be all tie dye Godspell Jesus Christ Superstar neo Gnostic miracle-busting historicritical crowd.

 

[on_the_hill]

We’re the apostles participating in the Last Supper or were they saying other prayers while Jesus spoke to them?