Rosary during Mass.

[Missa_Solemnis]

It is absolutely beyond me.

So many of you learned traditionalists fight tooth and nail, to and beyond the point of schism, over your ‘cum spiritu tuos’ and ‘pro multises’, and treat these issues with probably more significance than they really deserve.

Yet you are so genuinely impressed with the importance of them and SO genuinely in loved with them that when you ACTUALLY get the chance to either hear them or follow along with them as they are being recited you deliberately switch off and choose not to. I find it incomprehensible.

Now my humble Novus Ordo mass may not be ‘the most beautiful thing this side of heaven’. I don’t know - I for one haven’t experienced everything this side of heaven. But I DO know it’s the most significant thing this side of heaven. And I know for that reason that it behooves me to follow intently along with every single word of it.

By the very nature of the Rosary it is a much inferior prayer. And to me praying the Rosary is the mental equivalent of those Novus Ordo attendees who wear jeans when they could dress up a little. Not sacrilege exactly, and there are some who can do no better, but certainly not a particularly appropriate way to do things either.

I mean when your loved ones speak to you, about you or on your behalf at home, do you spend all or most of that time praying the Rosary in your head instead of listening to them??? I for one would find it extremely insulting if I were to find out that someone did.

Your drawing a conclusion here that praying the Rosary during the Mass somehow detracts from partcipation. I tried it at daily Mass today (all this debate in favor for it…and having not done it in my life made me feel hypocritical) and it did not detract from anything. I heard all my ‘et cum spirit tuo’s’ and appreciated them. It didnt subtract…it only added. Added the feeling of unity with the Mass. Im not just watching it…im praying at it. Im participating the way the laity should participate. In Silence, in prayer, in meditation.

Now you brought up an interesting example…

I mean when your loved ones speak to you, about you or on your behalf at home, do you spend all or most of that time praying the Rosary in your head instead of listening to them??? I for one would find it extremely insulting if I were to find out that someone did.

Again this is probably your most straightforward remark supporting the idea that people pray the Rosary INSTEAD of participating at Mass.

If understood properly, praying the Rosary is a means of participting at Mass. Not two different devotions going on at the same time. Only two events going on within the same Mass…

1. The Host 2. And prayer.

 

[LilyM]

Only two events going on within the same Mass…

1. The Host 2. And prayer.

Here lies the rub. You say ‘prayer’ as if all prayers were equal - they are not. The actual prayers contained in the Mass itself are infinitely superior to the prayer of the Rosary, or any other prayer we can compose. That is why THOSE exact prayers and no others were chosen as the mandatory ones to be said during the Mass.

If all prayer were equal, any prayer could be exchanged for the prayers of the Mass. People wouldn’t just pray the Rosary during Mass, they would get up and go around the stations of the Cross, or do any number of other private devotions.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Here lies the rub. You say ‘prayer’ as if all prayers were equal - they are not. The actual prayers contained in the Mass itself are infinitely superior to the prayer of the Rosary. If they were equal, they would either be interchangeable or given equal importance in the lives of Catholics

You say "The actual prayers contained in the Mass itself are infinitely superior to the prayer of the Rosary. " As if that somehow rules out inferior prayers.

Just because Steak is my favorite food in the whole wide world, just because it fills you up like nothing else does, just because it tastes better and has more protein than anything else on your plate…doesnt mean you CANNOT serve that steak with mash potatoes.

And I consider eating the mash potatos not as something seperate than eating steak. Nor do I ‘forget’ the potatoes when im eating the beef. Its just one thing…eating dinner.

And so also…the Mass and the Rosary, while one is inferior and one is superior, while they are different in essence, and are completely different things anyway. They consist of one event, one ‘dinner’… the worship of God.

 

[Marian_Boy]

Here lies the rub. You say ‘prayer’ as if all prayers were equal - they are not. The actual prayers contained in the Mass itself are infinitely superior to the prayer of the Rosary. If they were equal, they would either be interchangeable or given equal importance in the lives of Catholics

By that logic, you must admit that the Traditional Mass is infinitely superior to the Novus Ordo, since it contains many more rich and meaningful prayers.

And Catholicism teaches that the priest offers the Sacrifice, not us. We can unite our prayers to his, but he is the one offering it on our behalf. That is why so much of the Mass is inaudible and it doesn’t need to be in the vernacular, because it is the priest’s prayer to God. If the priest were praying the rosary while offering the holy sacrifice, it might present a problem, but what could be wrong with the people praying the prayers of the rosary which come directly from heaven and assisting at Mass at the same time.

 

[AJV]

I am well aware of that Hesychios but what makes you think you know better than Pope SAINT Pius X? Perhaps previous popes have a “teflon coating” because past popes tended to focus on condemning errors and glorifying Almighty God rather than man and the modern world, upholding and preserving tradition rather than ditching it and introducing new innovations and novelties…so understandably their teachings carry a bit more weight for us.

Sorry, I’ve sort of lost track of the posts- what did St. Pius X say with regard to the rosary within Mass?

 

[mgy100]

Another appropriate term for the Mass is Liturgy. Liturgica means work of the people in Greek. Praying the rosary during mass takes away your participation in the Liturgy. If you are praying privately during the Liturgy ( which is a gather of the community, a work of the people) then you are taking away from the community and yourself. Private devotions are meant to be done outside of Mass/Liturgy, because the Liturgy is the greatest prayer, the greatest part of our Christian communities and it is meant to be done communally not with people praying private devotions the whole way throughout.
Pray the rosary before mass, after mass, on the way to church, but not during mass.

 

[LilyM]

You say "The actual prayers contained in the Mass itself are infinitely superior to the prayer of the Rosary. " As if that somehow rules out inferior prayers.

Just because Steak is my favorite food in the whole wide world, just because it fills you up like nothing else does, just because it tastes better and has more protein than anything else on your plate…doesnt mean you CANNOT serve that steak with mash potatoes.

No, not mash potatoes. Bad analogy. The Rosary isn’t that sort of purely incidental accompaniment.

It’s serving, for you, at least part of the same function that the prayers of the Mass themselves serve for those that follow them, since you’re praying them at precisely the same time the others are following some or all of the Mass prayers and choosing NOT to devote your intention instead to the superior Mass prayers when you are well able to do so.

So it seems to me you’re essentially sitting there with your plate that has both a steak and a hunk of burger meat on it, and eating part of the burger and part of the steak instead of all of the steak.

 

[LilyM]

By that logic, you must admit that the Traditional Mass is infinitely superior to the Novus Ordo, since it contains many more rich and meaningful prayers.

I’m neither a liturgist nor a theologian, nor do I have any real experience of the TLM to speak of, so I can’t comment on the meaningfulness or richness of the prayers of either. Among those experts I do know, opinion is about even as to the merits and demerits of each.

What I do know is that both far outstrip the Rosary in terms of meaning and richness.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

differences between the traditional Catholic faith and the postconcilar religion.

So, where does an inquirer like myself find the true Church? I certainly wouldn’t want to end up in this “postconcilar religion” of which you speak!

P.S. The Novus Ordo isn’t “humble”. Discarding centuries old traditions honored by holy saints and popes in favor of a man-centered service calculatingly drawn up to get rid of or obscure anything that might offend non-Catholics, is rather arrogant and conceited. You’re confusing paltry with humble.

My understanding is that the Novus Ordo is the official mass of the Catholic Church. And, it is also my understanding that Catholics are expected to obey the teachings of the Church, even the ones with which they disagree. There is already a term for those Christians who protest against the teachings of the Catholic Church…

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

No, not mash potatoes. Bad analogy. The Rosary isn’t that sort of purely incidental accompaniment.

It’s serving, for you, at least part of the same function that the prayers of the Mass themselves serve for those that follow them, since you’re praying them at precisely the same time the others are following some or all of the Mass prayers and choosing NOT to devote your intention instead to the superior Mass prayers when you are well able to do so.

So it seems to me you’re essentially sitting there with your plate that has both a steak and a hunk of burger meat on it, and eating part of the burger and part of the steak instead of all of the steak.

Knowing me…that sounds like an ideal meal.

But back to seriousness.

Well (correct me if it wasnt you who used this analogy…I think it was you but im not going to close this post to check)

I found your TV-Music analogy a bad example…you dont like my steak analogy. Well maybe analogies dont do justice in real theological debates lol. Lets save our useful Catholic imaginations for the Protestants. (I particularly like the ones we come up with for the Immaculate Conception discussions)

What it boils down to is one single question.

Does the Rosary hinder participation in Mass?

Now before we answer it…lets ask another question?

Does Latin hinder participation in a TLM?

Now you and I both know that this is an arguement that has more answers than this rosary debate ever could have. But people tend to agree that…no…Latin does NOT hinder participation in itself…

BUT- I dont like it as much as english so for me it hinders participation.
BUT- I dont like reading from a Missal so it hinders participation.
BUT- I cant spend time going from Altar-to-Missal throughout the Mass, its engrossing and takes away participation.

etc. etc.

So while we know Latin itself does not hinder participation…that is not the case for everyone. Since everyone applies the TLM differently in their lives.

In the same way we must ask ourselves…

Does the practice of saying the Rosary during the Mass hinder participation?

The Answer…I believe…is No.

Could it hinder participation?

Well that, like the Latin arguement, varies from person to person.

 

[Marian_Boy]

Sorry, I’ve sort of lost track of the posts- what did St. Pius X say with regard to the rosary within Mass?

This is from the Catechism of St. Pius X:

17 Q. In hearing Holy Mass which is the best way to practise true devotion?

A. In hearing Holy Mass the best way to practise true devotion is the following: (1) From the very beginning to unite our intention with that of the priest, offering the Holy Sacrifice to God for the ends for which it was instituted. (2) To accompany the priest in each prayer and action of the Sacrifice. (3) To meditate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ And to heartily detest our sins, which have been the cause of them. (4) To go to Communion, or at least to make a spiritual Communion while the priest communicates.

19 Q. Does the recitation of the Rosary or other prayers during Mass prevent us from hearing it with profit?

A. The recitation of the Rosary and other prayers during Mass does not prevent us from hearing it with profit, provided we try As far as possible to follow the parts of the Holy Sacrifice

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

My understanding is that the Novus Ordo is the official mass of the Catholic Church. And, it is also my understanding that Catholics are expected to obey the teachings of the Church, even the ones with which they disagree. There is already a term for those Christians who protest against the teachings of the Catholic Church…

Replace the reference to Novus Ordo with TLM…then apply your quote to Paul VI. Since at the time of Paul VI the TLM was the official Mass of the Catholic Church.

Youll find the results interesting.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

This is from the Catechism of St. Pius X:

Oooooh!

Goodie Goodie.

Always good to hear from His Holiness.

St. Pius X, Defender of the Church, pray for us thy sinful servants!

 

[Marian_Boy]

So, where does an inquirer like myself find the true Church? I certainly wouldn’t want to end up in this “postconcilar religion” of which you speak!

My understanding is that the Novus Ordo is the official mass of the Catholic Church. And, it is also my understanding that Catholics are expected to obey the teachings of the Church, even the ones with which they disagree. There is already a term for those Christians who protest against the teachings of the Catholic Church…

The Roman Catholic Church is the true church and Pope Benedict XVI is its head, but it is currently in a great crisis. We know that the crisis will eventually pass, because the Church has been through crises before and emerged triumphant, because Christ promised the gates of Hell would never prevail against her.
Where would you have found the true church during the Arian crisis when most of the bishops were Arian and our churches were overrun with them, while holy men like St. Athanasius fought to preserve the faith but was unjustly and invalidly excommunicated by the pope at the time. I think it was St. Athanasius himself who said, (and I’m paraphrasing), “Even if there are but a few Catholics left who are faithful to tradition, they are the true church.” There are many modern parallels between St. Athanasius and Archbishop Lefebvre. But I do not wish to deviate from the topic.

The “official Mass” of the Church is the Tridentine Mass. Pius V gave all priests for all time the right to say it without any scruple of conscience, and it was never suppressed. The “New Mass” is hardly a “teaching” of the church, and we can hardly be called Protestants for protesting Protestant influences, including the New Mass, in our Catholic Church. Remember, Protestants wanted to throw out traditions and introduce innovations and novelties…while we are fighting to preserve tradition and resist novelties.

Feel free to PM me though with questions or comments, Iambic! God bless.

 

[bear06]

Hey, that was my TV-music analogy wasn’t it?! If not, I thought about it.

You were the one who brought up the fact that good music in a movie compliments it and can even add to it. Again, this actually could be the same thing for the Mass. Why isn’t this allowed?

We’re never going to agree upon this. Anything that says that the rosary is OK in Mass always has a caviat to go with it - “as long as”, “if”, etc.

We live in an era and a place (at least most of us) where people are educated enough that they can pick up their missal and follow along and focus on the “source and summit” of our Faith. We do not live in an era as the beginning of the last century where illiteracy ran rampant (yes there are still pockets but let’s look at the general state).

This has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo whether or not some went off on a rant to draw attention away from peoples’ arguments. This can be exclusively about the TLM. Heck, if people can just say the rosary, why bother with the missals at all? The Church didn’t create those for no reason.

 

[lumendelumine]

I mostly attend NO Masses, but I also have rather ample experience of the TLM, which I love very much. That is exactly why I am siding with LilyM and bear06 on this one. IMHO the Consecration in the TLM is one of the most beautiful moments you can ever experience, that’s why I like the rapt attention and the excitement leading up to it.

This is why I would be distracted if I prayed the Rosary during Mass. I would think I would not do justice neither to the Rosary nor to the Mass, because the Rosary is not “in sync” with the Mass, so to speak, so it does not harmonize in the way music for a romantic film harmonizes with the events depicted. I also often have problems focusing on the prayer when praying the Rosary, so trying to “multitask” would not be very conductive to deep prayer in my case.

Mind you, I’m not saying that people who pray the Rosary during Mass are stupid or irreverent or anything. I am only saying that I think the Mass, at least High Mass (one may dispute about Low Mass - I’d say the Rosary is more appropriate there) commands and deserves full attention.

This is why I would prefer, if one needs additional devotions during Mass at all, the “Mass devotions” you sometimes find in old missals. These are prayers with focus on specific moments of the Mass and make you appreciate these more deeply. As far as I know, St. Pius X. recommended them to the faithful enthusiastically…

 

[InLight247]

youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64

This is the TLM.

Its really nothing like the Novus Ordo.

Thanks so much for the link.
It took me long time to follow the online TLM from beginning to end along with some notes taking. For that, I did not go to bed until 1:00 a.m. this morning.
It is very different from the Mass I am attending. However, the basics are the same. It is a holy sacrifice.
I watched very attentively - the entrance, the Alleluia, the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Collect, the Epistle, the general, the gospel, the credo,…Almost every part is by singing.
Up till this point, I didn’t see any part of silence to allow praying.

Then the offertory, the incensing of the offering, the preface to the Canon, the Sanctus, the Consecration, the oblation of the victim to God, the Lord’s prayer, the fraction of the Host, the Agnus Dei, the kiss of peace, the Domine, the priest’s communion, the Confiteor, the bless of the congregation, the people’s communion, the Ablution, the Communion Antiphon, the post communion final blessing, the last Gospel… I still haven’t see any silent time. The singing is forever going.

If there is any silent prayer time like some of you mentioned, sure, you can pray whatever prayer during that time. It is time for prayer anyway. But the video I watched has no silence during the entire period at all. When the Mass is ongoing, I believe we ought to pay attention to the details.

Anyway, thanks again for the link, it is a brand new experience for me!

 

[kitkatty]

Because Adoration ISN’T Mass. Mass is the public prayer of the church par excellence. It is the most perfect, valuable prayer you will ever have anything to do with. Traditionalists fight tooth and nail, to and beyond the point of schism, because they believe so strongly in its value precisely as it stands. Why on earth, having done so, having your ‘best thing this side of heaven’, you would then inject a mightily inferior, though worthy, prayer into it is beyond me.

I can well imagine your reaction if I were to tell you that liturgical dance, rock music and so on during Mass made me feel more like ‘Mary, the Saints and myself are united in the worship of our Eucharistic Lord’. Even were I genuinely to believe so, you’d say, and quite rightly, “THE MASS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU FEEL!” You have done time and again over different private interpolations into the Mass.

Well, why can’t I say the same about saying the Rosary during Mass, which IMHO completely misses the point of communal worship? I don’t mean that ‘active participation’ or anything like is necessary, but at least we should all be focused on the words of the SAME prayers which the priest is offering on our behalf.

Good post Lilly, the Rosary and no devotion no matter how spiritually beneficial should interfere with Mass participation. Nothing supercedes the Mass / Divine Liturgy.

 

[CatholicNick]

Thanks so much for the link.
It took me long time to follow the online TLM from beginning to end along with some notes taking. For that, I did not go to bed until 1:00 a.m. this morning.
It is very different from the Mass I am attending. However, the basics are the same. It is a holy sacrifice.
I watched very attentively - the entrance, the Alleluia, the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Collect, the Epistle, the general, the gospel, the credo,…Almost every part is by singing.
Up till this point, I didn’t see any part of silence to allow praying.

Then the offertory, the incensing of the offering, the preface to the Canon, the Sanctus, the Consecration, the oblation of the victim to God, the Lord’s prayer, the fraction of the Host, the Agnus Dei, the kiss of peace, the Domine, the priest’s communion, the Confiteor, the bless of the congregation, the people’s communion, the Ablution, the Communion Antiphon, the post communion final blessing, the last Gospel… I still haven’t see any silent time. The singing is forever going.

If there is any silent prayer time like some of you mentioned, sure, you can pray whatever prayer during that time. It is time for prayer anyway. But the video I watched has no silence during the entire period at all. When the Mass is ongoing, I believe we ought to pay attention to the details.

Anyway, thanks again for the link, it is a brand new experience for me!

You pray throughout the WHOLE Mass, music makes no difference. Music helps lift ones heart to heaven, there need not be silence to foster better prayer. Sacred Polyphony and Plainchant is not destructive to prayer.

That was filmed a long while ago though, and seems edited to me. I suggest you watch this Video for the whole Solemn High Mass with music - and silence during the consecration (as prescribed by the Missal of 1962 I believe, if I’m wrong, I’m sure AJV or AlexV can correct me)

youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE&mode=related&search=

 

[MariaG]

You pray throughout the WHOLE Mass, music makes no difference. Music helps lift ones heart to heaven, there need not be silence to foster better prayer. Sacred Polyphony and Plainchant is not destructive to prayer.

That was filmed a long while ago though, and seems edited to me. I suggest you watch this Video for the whole Solemn High Mass with music - and silence during the consecration (as prescribed by the Missal of 1962 I believe, if I’m wrong, I’m sure AJV or AlexV can correct me)

youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE&mode=related&search=

What is “Sacred Polyphony”? And if one is praying throughout the whole Mass, how is it possible to also pray the Rosary?