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childofmary1143
Guest
Balance I find it odd that you are so intent to know what Caesar says. Can’t you make up your own mind? Also it is not appropriate for you to speculate that he might be sloppy and/or lazy.
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childofmary1143
Guest
If indeed that Pope Pius XII did say that in a Encyclical does make it RIGHT.
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Hesychios
Guest
Uh…no.
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Indyann
Guest
There is more disrespect and ridiculing of the Holy Mass on this thread than there is on the n-c forum. This seems to be a clear violation of Rules #6 and #7.Because you should be up standing around the altar clapping and swaying to the beat of the conga drums, reading in vernacular and handing out Holy Communion as if you were dealing out cards for a poker game. Now is THAT active participation or what?
I sincerely hope and pray that you will someday mature and realize that the hate and anger you have for the NO is not helping you in your discernment.
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Caesar
Guest
Some of you need to get a sense of humor. I dont see how I was in the wrong (although maybe off-topic) to poke fun at some less-orthodox interpretations of active participation. I certainly wasnt been hateful or angry, I just think that sometimes we need to have a bit of a laugh. Some of you read between the lines a little too much and you jump t0 false conclusions.
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
WARNING: Lack of charity alert! Back on topic, please.
Jean Anthony
Jean Anthony
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maurin
Guest
with only the utmost of respect for my teacher, my friend and hopefully one day my Priest: Jesus taught us to avoid even the appearance of scandal. Something to think about…
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Missa_Solemnis
Guest
Ahem…What?(((PARTS OF QUOTE CUT OUT FOR POST SIZE)))
So, because you proudly apply the label “extremist” to yourself, you can add, to your list, another term - “non-exonymic.”
Seriously, is praying the Rosary part of being a “scary fire and brimstone Catholic”? Generation after generation of faithful Catholics, down through the ages, have regarded the Rosary as a prayer of love, an expression of mercy and redemption.
Interesting isn’t it, that there are no mysteries dedicated to Christ preaching about hell (and he did plenty of that.) Interesting that the mysteries are grouped under “Joyful,” “Glorious” and “Luminous” (but you mightnot feel comfortable with praying that last one, at least not as John Paul II gave them to us, hmm?) - quite obviously not about fire and brimstone - and “Sorrowful”: hellish, in some aspects, but not about fire and brimstone; rather all about the great love and mercy of God *saving us *from fire and brimstone.
If you really wanted to remind us that scary fire and brimstone Catholics still exist, you should start a thread titled “You’re going to burn in hell if you don’t stop that.”
And you should talk about the Rosary less - it reminds us of Mary, and of Christ, not of fire and brimstone.
Im not quite sure why my profile and/or my personal beliefs have anything to do with this thread.
The Question is “Why is praying the Rosary Wrong in the context of a TLM”
This is not a thread about liturgy, liturgical abuse, or a TLM vs. NO Debate.
And as much as I enjoy talking about my esteemed self…(sarcasm people) it’s off topic.
If my profile really bothers you, dont read it. I dont find any reason to change any of the things stated there. I am in my own opinion an Extremist Catholic. I dont see any flaws in that title. Tell you the truth…I dont think im ‘extreme’ enough. I dont think anyone can be ‘too extreme’ when it comes to their religion.
And like CatholicNick said…my Profile is not meant to be disected into an actual statement about the way I practice Catholicism.
And finally…an examination of some of your comments.
This is interesting. My profile says im a Fire and Brimstone Catholic. From that one sentence you seem to conclude that I regard the Rosary as a prayer revolving around Fire and Brimstone? Im not quite sure I see the logic there. Are you assuming that just because I acknowledge the reality of Hell (something many Catholics have forgotten) I somehow have underminded the Rosary?
Talk about jumping to conclusion. Let’s look at what were talking about:…
- Missa Solemnis defines himself as a Fire-and-Brimstone Catholic.
- Therefore Missa Solemnis must believe that the Rosary is a prayer about Fire and Brimstone and not love?
Hmn. Again you assume that I have somehow merged the Rosary with Fire and Brimstone. I’m failing, yet again, to see the conneciton or relevance with this thread. Also…you make a statement that I would not pray the Luminous Mysteries since they were given to us by John Paul II. What is the basis of that statement? And lastly…what does that have anything to do with my profile OR the topic thread?
I guess since my profile says im an Extremist Catholic…I must somehow believe that God does not love me and that the Rosary is a tool for meditating on how hot Hell is.
Honestly…what are you doing for this discussion except trying to make somone look bad? (and having a faulty method of doing so)
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childofmary1143
Guest
So are you saying that when Pope Paul VI wrote Humanae Vitae that Catholics aren’t obliged to be obedient to him? That he was wrong to write that? Is that what you are saying???
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Loy
Guest
I would think that it would be up to our pastors to determine whether or not saying the rosary during the Tridentine Mass is an abuse or not. Does the 1962 Missal or the Ecclesia Dei commission prohibit it? Prior to the 1962 Missal, it was allowed, under the conditions outlined by Pope Pius XII.
Everyone may have their opinions, but it’s up to our pastors to determine what practices are allowed and which are not.
Everyone may have their opinions, but it’s up to our pastors to determine what practices are allowed and which are not.
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Caesar
Guest
Hmm, I suppose you are correct then. I apologize to anyone my joke may have offended, but I certainly didnt intend anything of the sort.
Ok then.
In the past private devotion has been allowed, sometimes even encouraged, provided the individual remains focused on the Mass. Since through the prayers of the Rosary we meditate on the lives of Our Lord and Our Lady, this meditation can certainly be applied to the Mass- one can meditate on the Mysteries of the Rosary while still following the Mass, the actions of the priest and the prayers.
However, since today the use of personal Missal bnooks is quite common in the traditional Mass it should be preferable that we pray the actual prayers of the Mass silently. Besides, many TLMs today have the Rosary before or after Mass.
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Windmill
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given the context of the encyclical cited above, and the average level of education nowadays, I think more and more people should be able to follow the TLM in a missal instead of pray a rosary. i mean, we’re talking about basic reading skills.
however, there will always be those who cannot follow even that. for those, i think the pontiff was saying that it is commendable to tend to some silent devotion or piety rather than stare at the ceiling or fall asleep at mass. iow, if you can’t follow the mass, pray something, but if you can follow the mass, then do that instead of a private devotion.
however, there will always be those who cannot follow even that. for those, i think the pontiff was saying that it is commendable to tend to some silent devotion or piety rather than stare at the ceiling or fall asleep at mass. iow, if you can’t follow the mass, pray something, but if you can follow the mass, then do that instead of a private devotion.
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Hesychios
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Don’t put words in my mouth, or try to deflect the subject.
Popes throughout history have made mistakes and been mistaken. If one out of 266 makes a mistake, we don’t have to crucify him for it, just do the right thing!
No one can claim that the encyclical Mediator Dei is an infallible document.
Now look at what the context of what he wrote:
Quote:
*Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them. *
The good man was clearly rationalizing a situation where someone who did not understand the liturgy
eek might be able to benefit by saying a rosary. That is simply an incredible statement, and it flies in the face of everything we know about the liturgy.
*]Liturgy is the ‘work of the people’, it is public worship. It is OUR worship.
*]‘Lex Orandi - Lex Credendi’ the beliefs of the people are the prayers of the people, and vice versa.
*]The 'Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist is central to Apostolic Christianity, it is also simple, it is also right and true and forever. One does not need a PHD to understand what is taking place, even small children know very well what is going on.
]Remember the old Catechism? This was written for seven year olds: Who made me? God made me! *
*God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world,
and to be happy with Him forever in the next. *
Q. What is the Holy Eucharist?
A. The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament which contains the body and
blood, soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearances
of bread and wine.
The words of Pius above have no real justification, the only people who could not even understand a liturgy would not understand a rosary. He is recommending in that case that one can successfully divide ones attention!
But let us give the benefit of the doubt. Let us suppose that in the interest of mercy and kindness the good bishop were to allow a rosary to those not intellectually prepared to comprehend what was taking place at the altar, or was preached from the pulpit.
In that case I suppose you and I would have to honestly admit to ourselves and in full view of Almighty God that we were mentally handicapped in order to make use of this dispensation.
*
Michael, that sinner*
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InTheWilderness
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May I make a suggestion of potential practical value?
For some, the Rosary may be the best way they are presently able to participate in the mass. Perhaps they are easily distracted and can’t stay focused on what is going on. In such a case, the Rosary may help them to at least stay focused on prayer, instead of the grocery list. However, we should all assist with the Mass to the greatest extent we can. I would say that private devotion is not exactly a very high form of assistance, but it is certainly a valid form of some assistance. This is really a judgment that each individual should make, probably with the advice of a priest.
Each of us has different gifts to offer at different times in our lives. The important thing is that we give of those gifts as fully as we are able. If the gift that someone is able to offer during Mass is to say a Rosary, then that should be respected. Perhaps we should even recall the widow’s mite and how highly it was esteemed. While we might say that those are unable to assist more fully are “spiritually poor” we should also recall what is said of the poor in spirit.
So participate and assist as best as you are able. We each have our own gifts and abilities. If what you have to offer in assistance at a Mass is your presence and the devotion of the Rosary, then offer it up and hope and pray that like all of our inadequate contributions, it will be found acceptable.
I think all of us have probably “assisted” at a Mass where our only “contribution” was using up oxygen and pew space. It would have been better if we had been praying the Rosary. Other times when we are able to more fully assist in the prayer of the Mass, it would be holding something back to be making a private devotion.
For some, the Rosary may be the best way they are presently able to participate in the mass. Perhaps they are easily distracted and can’t stay focused on what is going on. In such a case, the Rosary may help them to at least stay focused on prayer, instead of the grocery list. However, we should all assist with the Mass to the greatest extent we can. I would say that private devotion is not exactly a very high form of assistance, but it is certainly a valid form of some assistance. This is really a judgment that each individual should make, probably with the advice of a priest.
Each of us has different gifts to offer at different times in our lives. The important thing is that we give of those gifts as fully as we are able. If the gift that someone is able to offer during Mass is to say a Rosary, then that should be respected. Perhaps we should even recall the widow’s mite and how highly it was esteemed. While we might say that those are unable to assist more fully are “spiritually poor” we should also recall what is said of the poor in spirit.
So participate and assist as best as you are able. We each have our own gifts and abilities. If what you have to offer in assistance at a Mass is your presence and the devotion of the Rosary, then offer it up and hope and pray that like all of our inadequate contributions, it will be found acceptable.
I think all of us have probably “assisted” at a Mass where our only “contribution” was using up oxygen and pew space. It would have been better if we had been praying the Rosary. Other times when we are able to more fully assist in the prayer of the Mass, it would be holding something back to be making a private devotion.
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Rykell
Guest
Caesar,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1662156&postcount=45
Caesar:
This is not the first time you have extolled the practice of “poking fun” at a liturgy. May I echo Maurin’s comments and ask that you reconsider how these comments are coming across to others … truly a matter for scandal, IMO. If you like, I can provide additional links, but I think you get the point.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1662156&postcount=45
I forget who posted it first, but **I like it.
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childofmary1143
Guest
Rykell it is not your place to keep count of how many times Caesar has made a humorous comment. It is not scandalous what he wrote.
Strictly speaking turning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into a social free for all isn’t PROPER Liturgy. It’s abuse.
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SnorterLuster
Guest
If it’s the work of the people, then praying the Rosary would be that participant’s contribution, wouldn’t it? Of course, I gotta tell you, I have never had a priest or a liturgy committee ask me for my (name removed by moderator)ut–not even a survey to find out what the people want.
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Hesychios
Guest
Uh…no.
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AlexV
Guest
There’s nothing “wrong” with praying the Rosary during Mass. It’s not ideal, it’s not liturgically the most “aware” or desirable thing to do, but it’s not “wrong”.
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maurin
Guest
Rykell,
My friend and Discerning Seminarian Caesar has apologized for having caused anyone offense at what he intended to be funny above. I believe him.
But this exchange is proof of the turmoil that the current state of the Church is causing among the children of our Holy Mother Church. Both sides deserve to be heard by the other, as long as both sides present their points of views in a calm and rational, and most of all respectful manner–we are talking about the Body of Christ after all.
Yesterday, I went to Barnes and Noble in order to pick up His Holiness’ “The Spirit of the Liturgy.” While I was browsing the shelf I overheard a woman on a cell phone talking about the Mass for this Sunday, and she was saying that if the youth choir wanted to sing at Mass, they MUST be able to chant the Pater Noster. Intrigued, I approached her when she finished her phone call.
She is the Music Director at a small Church that is half Spanish-speaking and half American. Over the years they have moved from different Masses in English and in Spanish, to the NO in Latin. All Traditional Hymns. Her point: all cultures are familiar–or actually her words were, all cultures used to be familiar with the Traditional way of doing things. And a wonderful bridge this approach is proving to be. There are no more separate societies for English and Spanish speakers, especially among the youth, of the Parish. More of the adults of the Parish, she said, are having their faith renewed and regenerated precisely because of their worship in the fullness of the Parish community. The same # of Masses on Sunday, yet the pews have never been more full.
I have noticed at the TLM where I attend, there is a similar phenomenon. The congregation is a pretty good mix of American and Spanish worshippers.
I am more convinced than ever that the Traditions of our Church–her prayers, her worship, are the way to reverse the exodus of so many of our brothers and sisters to evangelicalism and secularism. Of course, in my opinion only, it would be nice to see the new cycle of readings be integrated into the TLM.
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