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Resurrexit
Guest
They changed the rubrics in either 55 or 62, preventing the organ being played during the consecration.
This happens during the video of the Mass with the Fulton Sheen commentary.
The choir shouldn’t be singing, but I think it’s nice to have the organ playing quietly throughout all of the sotto voce sections, including the consecration.
This happens during the video of the Mass with the Fulton Sheen commentary.
The choir shouldn’t be singing, but I think it’s nice to have the organ playing quietly throughout all of the sotto voce sections, including the consecration.
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AJV
Guest
De Musica Sacra* (1958) forbids specifically the playing of instruments. I don’t know whether this extended to those parts played by the organ at the elevation-instead of/in addition to the bells, not as in the video-I would guess no. Singing was of course forbidden several times.
In a way, I think, although music does have a certain uplifting quality, if one is going to play the organ during the silent Canon, one might as well recite the Canon aloud. A part of the beauty of the Canon lies in the silence, after all.
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jwedgie09
Guest
There is nothing wrong with praying the rosary during mass. In fact the reason for the bells during the consecration is so that when people were praying the rosary or other prayers during mass and the mass was in a different language for you to know what was happening
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bear06
Guest
So your premise is that people didn’t know what was happening?
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jwedgie09
Guest
Well BEAR if you were praying the rosary and you in deep prayer and meditation (like you should be) how would you???
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Margaret33
Guest
Praying the rosary in church is said to grant the one praying a plenary indulgence. However, I think the best way to go about this (for me anyway) is to come early to mass and pray my rosary before mass begins.
To quote a suggestion from Holy Rosary: Pray the Rosary Everyday (at :
thecatholicrosary.blogspot.com/2006/10/pray-rosary-everyday.html)
Under “Tips for Praying the Rosary More Devoutely”:
To quote a suggestion from Holy Rosary: Pray the Rosary Everyday (at :
thecatholicrosary.blogspot.com/2006/10/pray-rosary-everyday.html)
Under “Tips for Praying the Rosary More Devoutely”:
- Do not pray the rosary during Mass, not even during the sermon. It is much better to listen to the readings and prayers, watch the ceremonies, join in the singing, and become a part of the Mass. In former years when the rosary was encouraged during Mass, the ceremony was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.
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bear06
Guest
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Margaret33
Guest
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Pug
Guest
I think you mean “in a church or public oratory…”. The phrase “in church” might be interpreted to mean specifically during mass.
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Margaret33
Guest
The following might be more authoritative…
(It’s pdf and 75 pgs long though!) The Enchiridion of Indulgences:
hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/The.Enchiridion.of.Indulgences.pdf#search=%22indulgences%20filetype%3Apdf%22
(Please tell me if you have a good source of indulgences which contains Author and Date they were stated, have looked for something like this in the past)
(It’s pdf and 75 pgs long though!) The Enchiridion of Indulgences:
hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/The.Enchiridion.of.Indulgences.pdf#search=%22indulgences%20filetype%3Apdf%22
(Please tell me if you have a good source of indulgences which contains Author and Date they were stated, have looked for something like this in the past)
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AnnieD
Guest
Now if you had been to the Church I belong, Caesar, you would see the Priest standing on his head during the homily. I am waiting for him to run a wire across the church and ride a bicycle across it, while juggling lit candles.Because you should be up standing around the altar clapping and swaying to the beat of the conga drums, reading in vernacular and handing out Holy Communion as if you were dealing out cards for a poker game. Now is THAT active participation or what?
Annie
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bear06
Guest
No problem.
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ThomasMore1535
Guest
Before I comment on this issue, I want to give everyone here an idea of where I am comming from:
I live in St. Louis, and as such, I have the privilege of being able to attend the Classical Rite on a daily basis, thanks to the generosity of Archbishop Burke. In addition, I also have the honor of being able to attend very reverent Novus Ordo masses at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, thanks to Archbishop Burke.
I love the Classical Rite. I pray that a universal indult is granted very soon regarding it.
Having said that, I firmly believe that praying the Rosary during the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar is one of the worst liturgical abuses that the laity ever did in the years prior to Vatican II, and obscures something very, very important regarding the role that the laity are to play in the Church, and one of the reasons why I do not consider myself a “traditionalist,” because of that group’s continuing tolerance for this ridiculous abuse and reduction of the role the laity is supposed to play.
The term “active participation” is not a modernist invention. It is a term used by Pope St. Pius X himself in his magnificent Motu Proprio on Sacred Music, in which he says that the faithful are to participate in the Mass by SINGING the CHANTED PARTS of the Holy Mass. You can’t exactly do that when praying the Rosary, can you?
But there is a more important matter here. Many posters have previously noted that the laity do not offer the sacrifice, the priest does. This is certainly true. Only the priest offers Our Lord’s Body and Blood.
The laity, however, also have their own priesthood. They are to offer spiritual sacrifices to our Heavenly Father in union with the Holy Mass. That is, they are to offer up their whole lives as a pure oblation to God the Father through the Sacrifice of His Divine Son on the Altar, done at the hands of His Ministerial Priesthood.
Think I’m making this up? Look at the Classical Rite. What does the priest say to the laity when he turns around? “Pray, bretheren, that my sacrifice AND YOURS may be acceptible to God the alighty Father.”
The laity offer up a sacrifice as well, in union with the priest. As such, it is incumbent on them that they follow the mass as closely as they can, be it in the Classical Liturgy or the New Rite. Reciting the Rosary during mass means that they are not meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Mass.
To be continued below…
I live in St. Louis, and as such, I have the privilege of being able to attend the Classical Rite on a daily basis, thanks to the generosity of Archbishop Burke. In addition, I also have the honor of being able to attend very reverent Novus Ordo masses at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, thanks to Archbishop Burke.
I love the Classical Rite. I pray that a universal indult is granted very soon regarding it.
Having said that, I firmly believe that praying the Rosary during the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar is one of the worst liturgical abuses that the laity ever did in the years prior to Vatican II, and obscures something very, very important regarding the role that the laity are to play in the Church, and one of the reasons why I do not consider myself a “traditionalist,” because of that group’s continuing tolerance for this ridiculous abuse and reduction of the role the laity is supposed to play.
The term “active participation” is not a modernist invention. It is a term used by Pope St. Pius X himself in his magnificent Motu Proprio on Sacred Music, in which he says that the faithful are to participate in the Mass by SINGING the CHANTED PARTS of the Holy Mass. You can’t exactly do that when praying the Rosary, can you?
But there is a more important matter here. Many posters have previously noted that the laity do not offer the sacrifice, the priest does. This is certainly true. Only the priest offers Our Lord’s Body and Blood.
The laity, however, also have their own priesthood. They are to offer spiritual sacrifices to our Heavenly Father in union with the Holy Mass. That is, they are to offer up their whole lives as a pure oblation to God the Father through the Sacrifice of His Divine Son on the Altar, done at the hands of His Ministerial Priesthood.
Think I’m making this up? Look at the Classical Rite. What does the priest say to the laity when he turns around? “Pray, bretheren, that my sacrifice AND YOURS may be acceptible to God the alighty Father.”
The laity offer up a sacrifice as well, in union with the priest. As such, it is incumbent on them that they follow the mass as closely as they can, be it in the Classical Liturgy or the New Rite. Reciting the Rosary during mass means that they are not meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Mass.
To be continued below…
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ThomasMore1535
Guest
Furthermore, this view of the laity offering up their spritual sacrifices in union with that of the priest is revealed in the Roman Canon itself. The literal English translation reads “WE therefore humbly pray and beseech the, most merciful Father…”
The Roman Canon always uses the plural. “WE offer…” etc. This certainly does not mean that the laity have a ministerial priesthood. But it does show that they offer up spritual sacrifices in union with the sacrifice of the priest. How exactly are they to offer up these spiritual sacrifices when they are busy praying the Rosary during the Mass?
Furthermore, before any of you supposed “lovers of tradition” accuse me of not appreciating a traditional practice, I suggest you read what Pope St. Pius X wrote on this matter:
“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ, and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”
This quote is from the 1962 Missal published by Baronius Press. I challenge anyone to cite a single document of Venerable Pius XII in which that holy, saintly Pontiff contradicted the above words of his equally saintly predecessor.
I am honestly amazed that an earlier poster suggested that since the Roman Canon is silent in the Old Rite, this is the perfect time for private prayer. Far, far from it. I think the silent canon is a good thing, but this does not mean that it is a time for private prayer by the laity. On the contrary, the laity should be SILENTLY RECITING THE CANON IN UNION WITH THE PRIEST. This Canon is the Supreme Prayer of the Church. To say that it is just as good to pray the Rosary as it is to recite this Most Supreme of All Prayers is simply wrong. The laity have their own priesthood by virture of their baptism and confirmation.
Also, the argument of “well, it’s better than having bare-breasted women doing the readings,” is nothing other than the typical logical fallacy committed by supposed lovers of tradition whenever a valid criticism is made against them. Rather than responding to the criticism, they simply change the subject entirely by introducing a red herring. Two wrongs do not make a right.
The Roman Canon always uses the plural. “WE offer…” etc. This certainly does not mean that the laity have a ministerial priesthood. But it does show that they offer up spritual sacrifices in union with the sacrifice of the priest. How exactly are they to offer up these spiritual sacrifices when they are busy praying the Rosary during the Mass?
Furthermore, before any of you supposed “lovers of tradition” accuse me of not appreciating a traditional practice, I suggest you read what Pope St. Pius X wrote on this matter:
“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ, and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”
This quote is from the 1962 Missal published by Baronius Press. I challenge anyone to cite a single document of Venerable Pius XII in which that holy, saintly Pontiff contradicted the above words of his equally saintly predecessor.
I am honestly amazed that an earlier poster suggested that since the Roman Canon is silent in the Old Rite, this is the perfect time for private prayer. Far, far from it. I think the silent canon is a good thing, but this does not mean that it is a time for private prayer by the laity. On the contrary, the laity should be SILENTLY RECITING THE CANON IN UNION WITH THE PRIEST. This Canon is the Supreme Prayer of the Church. To say that it is just as good to pray the Rosary as it is to recite this Most Supreme of All Prayers is simply wrong. The laity have their own priesthood by virture of their baptism and confirmation.
Also, the argument of “well, it’s better than having bare-breasted women doing the readings,” is nothing other than the typical logical fallacy committed by supposed lovers of tradition whenever a valid criticism is made against them. Rather than responding to the criticism, they simply change the subject entirely by introducing a red herring. Two wrongs do not make a right.
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ctos
Guest
Praying the Rosary at Mass is obviously a stopgap measure taken by laity who are heavily marginalized by what is going on around them. There is no possibility that Mass started that way, and for it to become that is a problem to be corrected. It’s always possible to fashion reasons for how one thing expresses another thing, or for how two things fit perfectly together, etc. But the Mass is not the time for the Rosary.
Someone said that the Mass prayers in the Novus Ordo rite are banal, but they are not banal. They mean exactly what they say, and they say a lot. Obscure language is not required to reflect devotion and depth. The Mass was not originally obscure to the people, and for it to become so is a problem that needs to be corrected. It has been, thankfully.
People flee to the chapels because of monkey business at the Novus Ordo. They blame the liturgy, fashioning reasons why the liturgy is inferior: but they are using their intellects wrongly. In a way, those who prayed the Rosary at the Mass prior to the Council were fleeing, although not in the same way. They just used it as a form of participation. It helped them with their sanctification, kept their mind on the things of Our Lord. But it’s an inferior pattern.
Human psychology is complicated. A person may be able to participate very actively while praying the Rosary. But by and large it is not appropriate, and reflects a problem with how the Mass is celebrated. We should never belittle the way people practice their piety, but always help them to a fuller understanding of it.
Someone said that the Mass prayers in the Novus Ordo rite are banal, but they are not banal. They mean exactly what they say, and they say a lot. Obscure language is not required to reflect devotion and depth. The Mass was not originally obscure to the people, and for it to become so is a problem that needs to be corrected. It has been, thankfully.
People flee to the chapels because of monkey business at the Novus Ordo. They blame the liturgy, fashioning reasons why the liturgy is inferior: but they are using their intellects wrongly. In a way, those who prayed the Rosary at the Mass prior to the Council were fleeing, although not in the same way. They just used it as a form of participation. It helped them with their sanctification, kept their mind on the things of Our Lord. But it’s an inferior pattern.
Human psychology is complicated. A person may be able to participate very actively while praying the Rosary. But by and large it is not appropriate, and reflects a problem with how the Mass is celebrated. We should never belittle the way people practice their piety, but always help them to a fuller understanding of it.
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MarSarkees
Guest
Or, rather than having deep seated psycological problems, they could just find the Rosary an excellent way to meditate on the mysteries of the passion. Pius XII did it, I wonder if he realized he was fleeing the obscurity of the old Rite.This is laughable.
I thought we were’nt supposed to pay attention to others in Church? I mean thats what is said when anyone brings up dress or lack of reverance. I guess its only those dumb rosary bead holders causing all the trouble.
I guess I don’t understand this liturgical tyranny, where everyone must be in lock step conformance with the “community”.
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bear06
Guest
This is the second time I’ve seen this posted. I begged for a source the first time and was denied. I’d love to know where you got his from because, at this point, I’m inclined to believe this a radical traditionalist fairytale. I haven’t been able to find a source for this anywhere.
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devotus
Guest
I agree with Bear06
Too much going on at Mass for the Rosary – that is before or after Mass.
Too much going on at Mass for the Rosary – that is before or after Mass.
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