Ross Douthat - The Plot to Change Catholicism

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ARSpade said:
But enough about Father Martin’s twitter and Facebook feed.
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What exactly do you find hateful about Fr. James Martin’s writing? He’s the complete opposite from what I’ve read. I’m a bit of a fan of his.
 
Robert_Bay said:
MODERATOR NOTICE

Also do not make accusations of heresy. It is a very serious accusation (especially aimed at a cleric or theologian) and will be considered uncharitable here and you may receive infractions or suspensions for doing so.
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From the articles ( only a few) that I read, that is what people are taking issue with. And yes, it is a very serious thing and not a word to be bandied about lightly
 
J_Peterson said:
What exactly do you find hateful about Fr. James Martin’s writing? He’s the complete opposite from what I’ve read. I’m a bit of a fan of his.
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He’s done all those things he complains about to anybody who’s to the right of New Ways Ministry. I didn’t call it hateful, but apparently he does.
 
*This fear that the Catholic Church is under siege from within has been a common refrain from conservative prelates and commentators. The rising angst from the right is both inevitable, given his unsparing challenges to the ecclesiastical status quo, and wildly disproportionate. Pope Francis is not tossing Church doctrine into the Tiber River, and he shares similarities with his predecessors, including their concern with economic inequality and climate change.

Francis is no secular liberal. Progressives who expect him to refashion the Church in their image are as delusional as reactionaries on the right who think he is not Catholic enough.

But a pope who openly frets about “small-minded rules” in the Church and who challenges the hierarchy not to reduce the “freshness and fragrance” of the Gospel to a “disjointed multitude of doctrines” does present a stark contrast to Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

This posture is a welcome change for many faithful and deeply unnerving for others. After the heady and hopeful days of engagement with the modern world ushered in by the reforming Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the Church retrenched. In its worst forms, a siege mentality took hold, privileged clericalism festered, and self-appointed watchdogs of orthodoxy demonized Catholics who were deemed insufficiently pro-life. Confident hardliners who assumed they had a monopoly on defining Catholic identity are now losing their bearings.

Under the headline, “The Plot to Change Catholicism,” New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, a conservative Catholic, blasted what he called the pope’s “ostentatious humility” and described Francis as the “chief plotter” at the synod.

“The entire situation abounds with ironies,” Douthat wrote. “Aging progressive are seizing a moment they thought had slipped away, trying to outmaneuver younger conservatives who recently thought they owned the Catholic future.”

A number of Francis’s signature priorities — desire for open debate, discernment amid complexity, putting people at the center of a pastoral theology — conflict with the cold legalism that becomes the default setting of many who view themselves as the “real” Catholics defending the faith. By rekindling the embers of Vatican II, which defined the Church as “the people of God” (as opposed to just the hierarchy) and emphasized decentralization of power and collegiality as models of Church governance, Francis is demonstrating that in many ways, his vision of reform is as much about the journey as it is the destination.

In the end, reformers and hardliners could both declare victory after the synod.

cruxnow.com/church/2015/10/29/in-helping-the-church-stretch-francis-is-securing-its-future/*
 
ARSpade said:
First of all, lol ThinkProgress link.

Second, Bishop Barron had a better article on this: wordonfire.org/resources/article/ross-douthat-and-the-catholic-academy/4967/
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Quote:

And the suggestion that, because he doesn’t have a credential from the academy, Douthat isn’t qualified to enter into the discussion? Please. If a doctorate in theology were a bottom-line prerequisite, we would declare the following people unqualified to express an opinion on matters religious: Thomas Merton, Flannery O’Connor, Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, C.S. Lewis, William F. Buckley, W.H. Auden, or to bring things more up to date, Fr. James Martin, George Weigel, and E.J. Dionne. In point of fact, it is often the case that those outside of the official academy often have the freshest and most insightful perspectives, precisely because they aren’t sequestered in the echo-chamber of politically correct faculty lounge discourse.

The letter to the Times is indicative indeed of a much wider problem in our intellectual culture, namely, the tendency to avoid real argument and to censor what makes us, for whatever reason, uncomfortable. On many of our university campuses this incarnates itself as a demand for “safe spaces,” where students won’t feel threatened by certain forms of speech or writing. For the first time in my life, I agreed with Richard Dawkins who recently declared on Twitter, “A university is not a ‘safe space’. If you need a safe space, leave, go home, [and] hug your teddy…until [you are] ready for university.”

** So in the spirit of Howard Sudberry, I would say to those who signed the letter against Ross Douthat, “Make an argument against him; prove him wrong; marshal your evidence; have a debate with him; take him on. But don’t attempt to censor him.” I understand that the signatories disagree with him, but he’s playing by the RULES." **

Excellent post! Thank you!👍

I personally like his style of writing, I enjoy reading his articles, regardless of where they are posted in. I might not agree with the publication itself, but I like Ross Douthat. And I applaud the Times for allowing someone different from their usual politics…

I also agree with Bishop Barron, do NOT attempt to CENSOR him, he is playing by the rules! And I disagree with the letter written against Ross Douthat. :o

God bless!🙂
 
gilliam said:
*This fear that the Catholic Church is under siege from within has been a common refrain from conservative prelates and commentators. The rising angst from the right is both inevitable, given his unsparing challenges to the ecclesiastical status quo, and wildly disproportionate. Pope Francis is not tossing Church doctrine into the Tiber River, and he shares similarities with his predecessors, including their concern with economic inequality and climate change.

Francis is no secular liberal. Progressives who expect him to refashion the Church in their image are as delusional as reactionaries on the right who think he is not Catholic enough.

But a pope who openly frets about “small-minded rules” in the Church and who challenges the hierarchy not to reduce the “freshness and fragrance” of the Gospel to a “disjointed multitude of doctrines” does present a stark contrast to Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

This posture is a welcome change for many faithful and deeply unnerving for others. After the heady and hopeful days of engagement with the modern world ushered in by the reforming Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the Church retrenched. In its worst forms, a siege mentality took hold, privileged clericalism festered, and self-appointed watchdogs of orthodoxy demonized Catholics who were deemed insufficiently pro-life. Confident hardliners who assumed they had a monopoly on defining Catholic identity are now losing their bearings.

Under the headline, “The Plot to Change Catholicism,” New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, a conservative Catholic, blasted what he called the pope’s “ostentatious humility” and described Francis as the “chief plotter” at the synod.

“The entire situation abounds with ironies,” Douthat wrote. “Aging progressive are seizing a moment they thought had slipped away, trying to outmaneuver younger conservatives who recently thought they owned the Catholic future.”

A number of Francis’s signature priorities — desire for open debate, discernment amid complexity, putting people at the center of a pastoral theology — conflict with the cold legalism that becomes the default setting of many who view themselves as the “real” Catholics defending the faith. By rekindling the embers of Vatican II, which defined the Church as “the people of God” (as opposed to just the hierarchy) and emphasized decentralization of power and collegiality as models of Church governance, Francis is demonstrating that in many ways, his vision of reform is as much about the journey as it is the destination.

In the end, reformers and hardliners could both declare victory after the synod.

cruxnow.com/church/2015/10/29/in-helping-the-church-stretch-francis-is-securing-its-future/*
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Great article. I liked this part:

Francis is trying to wake up Church leaders, tucked peacefully under the comfortable blankets of doctrine, to the more difficult task Jesus embodied. The pope wants a Church that walks into uncertainty, seeks out those on the peripheries, heals wounds, and encounters people. In his blunt speech to bishops at the end of the synod, he said the meeting had “laid bare the closed hearts which frequently hide even behind the Church’s teachings or good intentions.” He added that “the true defenders of doctrine are not those who uphold its letter, but its spirit; not ideas, but people.
 
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So to overcome resistance from bishops who grasp this obvious point, first last year’s synod and now this one have been, to borrow from the Vatican journalist Edward Pentin’s recent investigative book, “rigged” by the papal-appointed organizers in favor of the pope’s preferred outcome.

unquote

This is not factual in the slightest (as the preceeding point isn’t either), is pure Magister-Thompson-Mickens and isn’t remotely fair to ordinary church members, Edward Pentin or those eyewitnesses he draws on, whose testimony I was aware of at the time.

Please see what I have been posting on this subject dozens upon dozens of times, several times per day, in virtually all the extremely numerous threads on the subject over the last two months.
 
Good_Tidings said:
Great article. I liked this part:

Francis is trying to wake up Church leaders, tucked peacefully under the comfortable blankets of doctrine, to the more difficult task Jesus embodied. The pope wants a Church that walks into uncertainty, seeks out those on the peripheries, heals wounds, and encounters people. In his blunt speech to bishops at the end of the synod, he said the meeting had “laid bare the closed hearts which frequently hide even behind the Church’s teachings or good intentions.” He added that “the true defenders of doctrine are not those who uphold its letter, but its spirit; not ideas, but people.
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“Thinke not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
 
quote

And Francis himself, in his daily homilies, has consistently criticized Catholicism’s “doctors of the law,” its modern legalists and Pharisees — a not-even-thinly-veiled signal of his views.

unquote

It necessarily is veiled because what he has in mind is the hard-hearted. Why mightn’t that category include anyone who wanted to change the faith - including by continuing to distract from the possibility that participation in the Church does not equate to using Communion in kinds?

“Liberal” delegates, and some “conservative sympathising” forum members, are agreed that participation in the Church equates exactly to using Communion in kinds, hence the popularity of the Thompson-Magister-Mickens-Douthat “line”.
 
Good_Tidings said:
From the articles ( only a few) that I read, that is what people are taking issue with. And yes, it is a very serious thing and not a word to be bandied about lightly
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That’s my understanding as well. After Douthat’s original column (which did not call anyone a heretic) the liberals piled, a couple dozen prominent professors, theologians &c signed a letter to the editor at NYT.
In the subsequent Twitter storm Doubutthat thweeted “Own you heresy” I think addressing himself to Card. Faggioli ?].

Btw, the NYT’s liberal Maureen Dowd often writes on matters Catholic and I don’t recall Fr Martin or anyone lese calling her out for not being a trained theologian.
 
didymus said:
That’s my understanding as well. After Douthat’s original column (which did not call anyone a heretic) the liberals piled, a couple dozen prominent professors, theologians &c signed a letter to the editor at NYT.
In the subsequent Twitter storm Doubutthat thweeted “Own you heresy” I think addressing himself to Card. Faggioli ?].

Btw, the NYT’s liberal Maureen Dowd often writes on matters Catholic and I don’t recall Fr Martin or anyone lese calling her out for not being a trained theologian.
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It’s almost like “Tolerance”, “Mercy”, and “Meeting people where they are” only go one way.
 
didymus said:
Btw, the NYT’s liberal Maureen Dowd often writes on matters Catholic and I don’t recall Fr Martin or anyone lese calling her out for not being a trained theologian.
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I’m not sure what people are reading. But some clarifications are needed I think.

Neither Fr. Martin nor Ross Douthat are trained theologians
Neither Fr. Martin nor Ross Douthat hold a PhD
Fr. Martin is a long time priest, teacher and a spiritual direction to many people
Ross Douthat is an accomplished blogger, editorial writer and political commentator.
Both are accomplished authors
Fr. Martin is a lot older than Ross Douthat and has been a pastor for a long time.
Fr. Martin and Ross Douthat do have differing political views but both are friends
Fr. Martin’s comments about a letter from theologians towards Ross Douthat’s article and how Ross Douthat responded on twitter can be found here: americamagazine.org/content/all-things/theology-and-hate
Fr. Martin also commented on Twitter and those comments can be found here: twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ He ended the twitter conversation by saying: The last thing I’ll say about @DouthatNYT today is, as I said in my piece, I respect him as good Catholic and I look forward to his op-eds.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Check this out from Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith

I back Ross Douthat: elites don’t own Catholicism

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/10/29/i-back-ross-douthat-eiltes-dont-own-catholicism/#.VjJglfUWPHs.twitter
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I really enjoyed reading this article by Father Alexander Lucie-Smith. 👍 Thank you!
I really love : “Elites don’t own Catholicism” and

“The journalist can draw solace from St Bernadette, who refused to stay silent in the face of opposition” 👍

“I sympathize with Ross Douthat, in two ways. Firstly, I sympathize, because I agree with what he writes. I think his reading of the situation is essentially correct. And I sympathize with him in another way. He has said something that some people do not like, and they have all jumped down his throat. I am familiar with that, having spent three decades as a “professional” Catholic in the Church. So, I feel for him. We have, many of us, been here before.”

“Gradually these people telling me to shut up, themselves shut up, as I gradually got a degree from Oxford, a doctorate in theology from Rome, and worked in a comprehensive school, in a parish and on the African missions.”

"Elitism is profoundly against the spirit of Catholicism and its letter. "

“Bernadette, I seem to remember, was told to shut up by both Church and State. Thank the Lord, she didn’t. We are all better off for it. I hope Mr Douthat will take courage from her example, and not be put off. We need his voice. And there are lots of other voices like his, for which we should all be profoundly grateful.”

Alexander Lucie-Smith is a Catholic Priest, Doctor of moral theology and consulting editor of The Catholic Herald.
 
ARSpade said:
I do wonder if calling people “haters” would equal calling them a “fool”.
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No, it is a personal attack but the meaning is a lot different. There are very many people over the centuries who were haters towards certain things but were definitely not fools.
 
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