Ross Douthat - The Plot to Change Catholicism

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Actual theologians came up with plenty of heresies over the past 2000 years. It would be arrogant and foolhardy to ascribe any special insight into them just because they have letters after their name (most of my immediate family is MA/MS/PhD. They’re not all that hard to get in any non-STEM field).
I back Ross Douthat: elites don’t own Catholicism
I’ve got to admit that I get twitchy with the anti-academic perspective that is so common these days. It seems like there is immediate suspicion cast upon anyone who has graduate degrees (full disclosure: I have them in a non-STEM field – it’s good to know now how easy it was to earn them ;)). It also seems that the education one undergoes in order to receive a degree is dismissed and the claim is often made (either directly or indirectly) that anyone can have the same level of knowledge. While some academics may in fact be foolish, biased, or unethical, I think it’s important to note that the purpose of graduate training is to make one an expert in a specific field. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, like CS Lewis. Douthat is no Lewis. In the article I linked, it’s pointed out that while Douthat presents himself as simply referring to Church teaching and not interpreting it, this is false. I can understand that if readers agree with his statements, it’s difficult to accept a chastisement of him. But it’s strange to accept his writing and refuse criticism of it simply because he isn’t an “elite.” The possibility that these theologians actually know a thing or two and have pegged him correctly must exist.
 
Lucie-Smith hasn’t supported Douthat’s “analysis”. That Douthat is in NYT, Thompson the the Spectator and Magister in Espresso are things that in themselves I accept. That all four are better qualified than me makes no difference. This is a side-issue.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post

“I back Ross Douthat: elites don’t own Catholicism”​

I’ve got to admit that I get twitchy with the anti-academic perspective that is so common these days. It seems like there is immediate suspicion cast upon anyone who has graduate degrees (full disclosure: I have them in a non-STEM field – it’s good to know now how easy it was to earn them ;)). It also seems that the education one undergoes in order to receive a degree is dismissed and the claim is often made (either directly or indirectly) that anyone can have the same level of knowledge. While some academics may in fact be foolish, biased, or unethical, I think it’s important to note that the purpose of graduate training is to make one an expert in a specific field. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, like CS Lewis. Douthat is no Lewis. In the article I linked, it’s pointed out that while Douthat presents himself as simply referring to Church teaching and not interpreting it, this is false. I can understand that if readers agree with his statements, it’s difficult to accept a chastisement of him. But it’s strange to accept his writing and refuse criticism of it simply because he isn’t an “elite.” The possibility that these theologians actually know a thing or two and have pegged him correctly must exist.
The second quote you posted by ** Abyssinia ** is from Father Alexander Lucie-Smith, a Catholic Priest, Doctor of Moral Theology and consulting editor of The Catholic Herald.

He has a degree from Oxford University & a Doctorate from Rome.
From what I have read, it seems that

Father Alexander Lucie-Smith as well as

Bishop Barron are standing by Ross Douthat! 🙂 They are defending him!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post

“I back Ross Douthat: elites don’t own Catholicism”​

The second quote you posted by ** Abyssinia ** is from Father Alexander Lucie-Smith, a Catholic Priest, Doctor of Moral Theology and consulting editor of The Catholic Herald.

He has a degree from Oxford University & a Doctorate from Rome.
From what I have read, it seems that

Father Alexander Lucie-Smith as well as

Bishop Barron are standing by Ross Douthat! 🙂 They are defending him!
That’s fine. Other theologians are disagreeing with his approach. And that’s fine, too. If we aren’t meant to privilege the opinions of theologians, I’m not sure why we should privilege the opinions of priests and bishops.

For what it’s worth, I have no idea what is meant by the word “elite” when it’s used in this way. It sounds a lot like something someone would say to appeal to the masses, rather than something with real substance underscoring it.
 
For what it’s worth, I have no idea what is meant by the word “elite” when it’s used in this way. It sounds a lot like something someone would say to appeal to the masses, rather than something with real substance underscoring it.
How ironic. That is exactly what I thought every time I heard it in college. My general sense is an elitist is everything a good academic is not, the “baddies” if you will. But you are on to something there with the lack of real substance, no question…
 
Maybe I am just watching another movie.
Without qualifying the author , it is hard.for me to see anything theological in the article.Not saying here that he is not a theologian ,maybe he is excellent.
And I mean honestly. It is an analysis ,yet theological ,not really for me.
And basically my take is that you play best the more challenging the training matches. And frankly , those.who loved me the most also challenged me higher.Sometimes real tough.
This sort of chess game analysis is light years from what I see. Blind and mosquito weight as I am ,of course.
 
The article begins by proclaiming the “ostentatious humility of Pope Francis” and with the assertion that his supposed ambitions have encouraged plotters to change church doctrine. Why? Because Pope Francis favors the proposal, “put forward by the church’s liberal cardinals” to allow the divorced and remarried to receive communion without having obtained an annullment. It is a plot to change doctrine by disguising the change as pastoral.

"And a change in doctrine is what conservative Catholics, quite reasonably, believe that the communion proposal favored by Pope Francis implies. It is a liberal plot. The synod is “rigged”, and the purpose of the rigging is to disguise doctrinal change as pastoral. Alas, “the pastoral argument is basically just rubbish”. But, fortunately, conservative bishops are on hand to protect church doctrine. The appointment of conservative bishops to the synod was only fortunate, the appointment of supposed liberal bishops but a plot.

This is a mixture of political opinion and fantasy. Unfortunately, it also supports the notion of division within the Church.
 
The article begins by proclaiming the “ostentatious humility of Pope Francis” and with the assertion that his supposed ambitions have encouraged plotters to change church doctrine. Why? Because Pope Francis favors the proposal, “put forward by the church’s liberal cardinals” to allow the divorced and remarried to receive communion without having obtained an annullment. It is a plot to plot to change doctrine by disguising the change as pastoral.

"And a change in doctrine is what conservative Catholics, quite reasonably, believe that the communion proposal favored by Pope Francis implies. It is a liberal plot. The synod is “rigged”, and the purpose of the rigging is to disguise doctrinal change as pastoral. Alas, “the pastoral argument is basically just rubbish”. But, fortunately, conservative bishops are on hand to protect church doctrine. The appointment of conservative bishops to the synod was only fortunate, the appointment of supposed liberal bishops only a plot.

This is a mixture of political opinion and fantasy. Unfortunately, it also supports the notion of division within the Church.
 
Here is an decent write up about the whole kerfuffle.

theamericanconservative.com/dreher/thin-skinned-theologians-douthat/

The tempest-in-a-theological-faculty-teapot over the pissy letter an (ever-growing) list of Catholic theologians are sending to The New York Times to complain about the traitor-to-his-class Ross Douthat is most revealing for what it says about the rank intolerance of the Catholic academic left, and the fragility of theologians, who fall to pieces in the face of the tiniest microaggression. Note well that this conniption fit over whether or not Douthat called Massimo Faggioli a “heretic” is about an exchange that happened not on the pages of the Times, but in a subtweet. Here is a link to the entire thread whence this emerged.

There is a very good reason that the Church has always been vigilant against heresy. There is nothing wrong with Douthat identifying a theological position advanced in public by a theologian as “heresy,” any more than there is nothing wrong with a newspaper columnist opining that a legal position advanced in public by a law professor as “unconstitutional.” It is a serious charge because heresy is very serious business in Church matters, especially at the Synodal level. The only real question is whether or not the accusation is true. These theologians raising a ruckus about the use of the word “heresy” are trying to discredit Douthat for using a perfectly good word and concept that has actual meaning in the world of the Church.

How do you get to be an academic theologian, yet go to pieces when a newspaper columnist says on a Twitter subthread that a position you hold is heresy — a position, by the way, that seems to be the position of a majority of the Synod fathers? Are Catholic theological faculties really that thin-skinned? Villanova theologian Katie Grimes, who lists her favorite theologian as “Tupac Shakur,” explains why she signed the anti-Douthat letter on her way to the fainting couch. Excerpts:
 
thefederalist.com/2015/10/29/ross-douthat-is-right-catholics-need-to-address-their-divorce-problem/

To Hell With Heretics!

On first skim, I found this missive exciting. Stylistically, it reads more like com-box quackery than a serious critique. But how refreshing to see it stated, in the pages of The New York Times no less, that heresy has serious consequences! Might the authors be thinking of the sixth circle of Dante’s “Inferno,” in which the stench of burning tombs fills the valley of the heretics? This is what America needs to hear! Preach it, Fr. O’Malley!

As my enthusiasm built to fever pitch, I suddenly realized my mistake. The signatories weren’t suggesting that heresy “can have serious consequences.” It’s the allegations that they hope to quash. How dispiriting.

Heretics Sure Can Get Touchy

How many kinds of ridiculous is this? Let me count the ways. First of all, Douthat never called anyone a heretic in The New York Times. Yes, he implied that Pope Francis was trying to change Catholic doctrine. But search his column for “heretic,” “heresy,” or “heretical,” and you’ll be disappointed.

The foundation for the “heresy” charge comes from a Twitter exchange with historian Massimo Faggioli. In the midst of a hammer-and-tongs exchange about authoritative dogma, Douthat advised him to “own your heresy.” The liberal theologians went berserk.

It’s quite amusing to read Fr. James Martin’s sanctimonious explanation of how very serious these allegations really are. But—reality check!—Douthat is a journalist. He has no ecclesial authority. Calling out heretics from The New York Times isn’t going to inspire a new Inquisition, or even threaten anyone’s job. Find me a single case in which a conservative pundit’s tweet has put a professional theologian in the hot seat with his employer.

To be sure, there is something charmingly medieval about demanding that Douthat attain qualifications before publicly denouncing heretics. It’s as though liberals are replacing the clericalism of yesteryear with a different kind of class distinction. Now academic theologians get to be the gatekeepers of orthodoxy. Do they know a heretic when they see one? Let’s call another synod to work it out.

Finally, as a lowly philosopher I hate to mention it, but this list includes doctoral candidates. Are they really qualified to sign this? I’m concerned.

The Roots of Heresy

Further context may help explain how this happened. Fifty years ago, in the wake of Vatican II, Pope Paul VI assembled a commission in preparation for an encyclical dealing especially with the controversial topic of birth control. Pope Pius XI had condemned artificial contraceptives 30 years previously, but the intelligentsia was eagerly anticipating a change. Pope Paul VI seemed sympathetic to the pro-contraceptive argument and, as in this most recent Synod, appeared to be “stacking the deck” with advisers sympathetic to reform.

Then, in 1968, “Humanae Vitae” was released. It sent shock waves through the Catholic world, from which we still have not recovered. The encyclical did not liberalize. It re-affirmed every important Catholic teaching with respect to marriage and sex, and unequivocally affirmed that “each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.” To the liberal intelligentsia (and reform-minded clergy), “Humanae Vitae” was a reactionary nightmare. They rebelled.

It’s hardly surprising that rank-and-file Catholics today go on telling pollsters how desperately their church needs to liberalize. For decades this has been preached, not only from the liberal press, but also from the pulpit. Liberal Catholics still mourn July 25, 1968, as a day of infamy. I have friends in theology departments who assure me that Catholic universities are still haunted by theologians for whom the most important, defining moral principle appears to be that “Humanae Vitae” cannot be right.

The effect on the laity has been fairly predictable. When a significant portion of the clergy and intelligentsia openly defy the church’s authority, widespread confusion follows. Now we have a world in which 30-something remarried Catholics try to return to their childhood faith, only to discover that, wow, you were serious about this no-divorce stuff? How did I miss that when I was growing up in the ’80s?

How indeed? Might heretics have something to do with it?
 
MODERATOR NOTE

I had to delete some posts and probably should have deleted more.

Don’t make personal attacks and don’t quote articles that do. The CAF rules pertain to this discussion too.
 
I just had that cut and pasted ready to post here. This is a very good reminder for everybody:
Names like “fool”, “vipers”, “sons of the devil”, “serpents”, “blind guides”, “whitewashed tombs”, “murderers”, or “child of hell”?
 
The main issue I have with certain pieces that have been written is that they don’t seem to take into account objective reality. A tribunal decision is a subjective decision. Let us look at the case of Protestants who divorce:

John and Jane are both validly baptized Protestants. They get married and the Church presumes they have a sacramental marriage. John and Jane divorce. John then gets married to Judy, a validly baptized Protestant. The Church still presumes that the first marriage is valid. However, if later in life John files with a diocesan tribunal for an annulment of his marriage to Jane and presents enough evidence that a decree of nullity is issued then his marriage to Judy becomes the presumed valid marriage, there is no need for new vows. The reason for this is that the objective reality is that John was never sacramentally married to Jane and thus was truly free to exchange vows with Judy.

There are many individuals caught in situations where they simply can’t provide enough evidence to the tribunal to prove the marriage was invalid. There can be many reasons for the lack of proof, everything from inability to get all the documents to the unavailability of witnesses to being unable to track down the former spouse. Objectively speaking they are free to marry but subjectively we don’t allow them to because we lack proof that will convince us. Its a terrible and sad situation to be caught in.

When certain articles talk about this issue they usually only talk about it as allowing divorced and remarried people to receive communion without an annulment. But that’s not really what would be happening. What some are proposing are alternate methods of determining the objective truth regarding the validity of a marriage. I don’t think anyone is proposing a free for all but rather simply finding other ways we might arrive at the truth.
 
The main issue I have with certain pieces that have been written is that they don’t seem to take into account objective reality. A tribunal decision is a subjective decision. Let us look at the case of Protestants who divorce:

John and Jane are both validly baptized Protestants. They get married and the Church presumes they have a sacramental marriage. John and Jane divorce. John then gets married to Judy, a validly baptized Protestant. The Church still presumes that the first marriage is valid. However, if later in life John files with a diocesan tribunal for an annulment of his marriage to Jane and presents enough evidence that a decree of nullity is issued then his marriage to Judy becomes the presumed valid marriage, there is no need for new vows. The reason for this is that the objective reality is that John was never sacramentally married to Jane and thus was truly free to exchange vows with Judy.

There are many individuals caught in situations where they simply can’t provide enough evidence to the tribunal to prove the marriage was invalid. There can be many reasons for the lack of proof, everything from inability to get all the documents to the unavailability of witnesses to being unable to track down the former spouse. Objectively speaking they are free to marry but subjectively we don’t allow them to because we lack proof that will convince us. Its a terrible and sad situation to be caught in.

When certain articles talk about this issue they usually only talk about it as allowing divorced and remarried people to receive communion without an annulment. But that’s not really what would be happening. What some are proposing are alternate methods of determining the objective truth regarding the validity of a marriage. I don’t think anyone is proposing a free for all but rather simply finding other ways we might arrive at the truth.
With all due respect, how is the subjective decision (which it is) of a marriage tribunal the objective truth of a marriage between two persons? What occurs at the moment of the exchange of vows is subjective, and it is this subjectively that a marriage tribunal attempts to objectively judge, typically by testimony and inference. However, as you note, “a tribunal decision is a subjective decision”. This at times is determined by the technicalities of Canon Law (and I do know it).

Who then would better judge the validity of the vows, vows to which the priest is only a witness?
 
The main issue I have with certain pieces that have been written is that they don’t seem to take into account objective reality. A tribunal decision is a subjective decision. Let us look at the case of Protestants who divorce:

John and Jane are both validly baptized Protestants. They get married and the Church presumes they have a sacramental marriage. John and Jane divorce. John then gets married to Judy, a validly baptized Protestant. The Church still presumes that the first marriage is valid. However, if later in life John files with a diocesan tribunal for an annulment of his marriage to Jane and presents enough evidence that a decree of nullity is issued then his marriage to Judy becomes the presumed valid marriage, there is no need for new vows. The reason for this is that the objective reality is that John was never sacramentally married to Jane and thus was truly free to exchange vows with Judy.

There are many individuals caught in situations where they simply can’t provide enough evidence to the tribunal to prove the marriage was invalid. There can be many reasons for the lack of proof, everything from inability to get all the documents to the unavailability of witnesses to being unable to track down the former spouse. Objectively speaking they are free to marry but subjectively we don’t allow them to because we lack proof that will convince us. Its a terrible and sad situation to be caught in.

When certain articles talk about this issue they usually only talk about it as allowing divorced and remarried people to receive communion without an annulment. But that’s not really what would be happening. What some are proposing are alternate methods of determining the objective truth regarding the validity of a marriage. I don’t think anyone is proposing a free for all but rather simply finding other ways we might arrive at the truth.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there may be many marriages which are in fact null but cannot be proven to be null. And that the discussion is about finding other ways to arrive at such a decision. Frankly, I wish that proponents of a change in practice had put the matter so clearly.

If it is about finding alternate methods of determining nullity, one could change the rules of evidence pertaining to the tribunal process, or provide an alternative process for determining nullity. My only worry is that such a practice might devolve in practice to Catholic divorce on demand. In the post following yours, Thomas White seems to suggest that the ultimate deciders should be the couple themselves, or perhaps each individual involved, which seems to leave a lot of room for non-objectivity.
 
Thomas White seems to suggest that the ultimate deciders should be the couple themselves, or perhaps each individual involved, which seems to leave a lot of room for non-objectivity.
What I was suggesting was recognition of the internal forum, the forum of conscience. There was a time when this was known as the Internal Solution. It is not to suggest that “deciders should be the couple involved” and this would not seem possible a matter of conscience for a couple any more than it would for a tribunal. It would involve a solitary discernment and the certain judgment of conscience (which must be obeyed).

I do not see this as a ‘sky is falling’ scenario, and it seems the OP does. What perhaps needs to be made clear is what the reference to the internal forum means in the final synod document. It looks much like Canon 130 in the 1983 code of Canon Law.
 
With all due respect, how is the subjective decision (which it is) of a marriage tribunal the objective truth of a marriage between two persons? What occurs at the moment of the exchange of vows is subjective, and it is this subjectively that a marriage tribunal attempts to objectively judge, typically by testimony and inference. However, as you note, “a tribunal decision is a subjective decision”. This at times is determined by the technicalities of Canon Law (and I do know it).

Who then would better judge the validity of the vows, vows to which the priest is only a witness?
There’s an objective reality: either they are or are not sacramentally bound to each other. How we personally judge it is subjective. That is why tribunals require clear and convincing proof that a marriage was invalid because otherwise its a free for all. Unfortunately clear and convincing proof is not always attainable.

The problem with letting people decide on their own is it leaves the door way too wide open for abuse and a free for all divorce mentality (i.e. marriage doesn’t have to be forever, if it doesn’t work out we’ll just claim our vows were invalid).
 
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there may be many marriages which are in fact null but cannot be proven to be null. And that the discussion is about finding other ways to arrive at such a decision. Frankly, I wish that proponents of a change in practice had put the matter so clearly.

If it is about finding alternate methods of determining nullity, one could change the rules of evidence pertaining to the tribunal process, or provide an alternative process for determining nullity. My only worry is that such a practice might devolve in practice to Catholic divorce on demand. In the post following yours, Thomas White seems to suggest that the ultimate deciders should be the couple themselves, or perhaps each individual involved, which seems to leave a lot of room for non-objectivity.
I agree that there’s risks to alternate methods. There’s also risks in the current method. There have been proposals over the decades (from even Fr. Ratzinger back in the 70s) about waiting for the “fruits” of the second “marriage” to be evaluated. Essentially putting the remarried without annulment into a kind of observation period (5, 10 years) and seeing if the current “marriage” shows true fruit of sacramental marriage. However, once again its so subjective that one diocese/bishop/pastor might have much different judgment than another.

As to why the debate was not framed in this way, I don’t really know. I generally blame it on the media since its not very good at theological distinctions and thus writes its stories using blatantly general words.
 
There’s an objective reality: either they are or are not sacramentally bound to each other. How we personally judge it is subjective. That is why tribunals require clear and convincing proof that a marriage was invalid because otherwise its a free for all. Unfortunately clear and convincing proof is not always attainable.

The problem with letting people decide on their own is it leaves the door way too wide open for abuse and a free for all divorce mentality (i.e. marriage doesn’t have to be forever, if it doesn’t work out we’ll just claim our vows were invalid).
With all due respect and charity, I doubt this is an objective reality. It seems to be me the Sacrament of Marriage transcends the objective and the subjective and is in that way spiritual. I do not believe a marriage tribunal could possibly see inside a person’s soul any more than a tribunal could objectively determine whether or not a person made a good confession, perhaps a decade or more later, by statement or the testimony of witnesses concerning their perception of behavior they objectively observed either before or long after the confession.
 
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