RSV-CE Needs Corrections

[friarpark]

johnbres2:

I decided to keep my new Ignatius Second CE after all. This happened mostly because over the weekend I began to delve into JP II’s “Catechesis on the Creed” works (priceless works),

Please excuse my ignorance, but can someone please list the titles in the “Catechesis on the Creed” series? I was looking through amazon for it (rather quickly) and could only find 2 titles.

Thanks!!

Brian

 

[jpy15026]

SFH:

. The RSV-CE published by Oxford press received an imprimatur from Cardinal Cushing of Boston (it does not contain the phrase “full of grace” and is based on the 1971 revision to the New Testament).

My Scepter/Oxford Press does contain"full of grace"

Imprimatur:
Gordon Joseph
Archbishop of Saint Andrew and Edinburgh

Nihil Obstat
Thomas Hanlon S.T.L.,L.S.S. ,PH.L.

Foward by John Cardinal Heenan,Archbishop of Westminster*

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03:
The Ignatius Bible 2nd Edition doesn’t have the pronunciation marks on names, the 1st Edition does. What does the Scepter/Oxford have?

Scepter has “semi” marks. Hyphens and emphasis marks but not the consonant marks over individual letters, I like this better, helpful and less cluttered, more readable*

 

[jpy15026]

I’m taking this up a notch:

Douay Rheims,(translated from the Vulgate into English, that our Catholic Church used for 1500 years)

Here is the info updated:

Douay Rheims:
Isaiah 7:14: “virgin”
Psalm 8:5: “Thou hast made him a little less than the angels”
Matthew 16:18: “gates of Hell”
Luke 1:34: “How shall this be”
John 19:5: “Behold the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “mercy”, “***”

Original 1965 RSVCE and Ignatius Bible First Edition:
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, “***”
Archaic language spoken to God.

Ignatius Bible RSV Second Catholic Edition:

Isaiah 7:14: uses Septuagint “virgin”
Psalm 8:5: uses Septuagint “Yet you have made him little less than the angels”
Matthew 16:18: “gates of Hades”, footnote “powers of death”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “mercy”, “donkey”
Only Archaic language in a few specific cases.

Oxford Press RSVCE Compact Edition (and possibly the new Reader’s Edition, we will have to see once it is released):
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How shall this be”
John 19:5: “Behold, the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one flesh”, no footnote
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, “***”
Archaic language spoken to God.

On all three of these editions, Luke 1:28 is rendered “Hail, full of grace”, and throughout the Holy Spirit is refered to with “whom” or “who” instead of “which”.

 

[Manfred]

mmortal03:

Thanks! I think this is definately going in the right direction. This thread has been my way of researching “which Bible is for me”. I would say that hybridizing could produce a fine translation, if they would just pick all the right passages!

Dear mmortal03,

Actually, from the way this thread has grown since the publication of that RSV-2CE, I wouldn’t exactly say we’re going in the right direction. I mean, we have Ignatius RSV-CE, Scepter RSV-CE, supposedly an Oxford RSV-CE, the Ignatius RSV-2CE, the RSV 2nd ed. NT; arrrghh!

I think there are now way-y-y-y too many editions of the RSV-CE, don’t you think?

It is at my University’s library for reference use, so I will go and look into this more in a few weeks after some of my exams are over with.

The NT only changed between the 1946 editon and the 1965 and the 1946 and the 1971, though, right? The 1952 edition just included the OT, and the 1959 edition just added the deuterocanonical books. There hopefully shouldn’t be more than two variants of the NT to compare. I’ll just have to check out that concordance you mentioned.

No, per my research, and this is confirmed by the reference work I cited, the RSV NT has no less than FOUR editions: the original 1946, another in 1952 (when OT was published), a 1959 corrected edition (based on (name removed by moderator)ut from users!), and the 1971 second edition. The RSV-CE was supposedly derived from the 1959 edition.

I’m assuming Luke 1:28 is properly Catholic in the RSVCE, so that shouldn’t be a problem in these CE’s.

I can only answer for the Ignatius RSV-CE: yes, Luke 1:28 reads “Hail, full of grace”.

Is this fixed in the CE’s?

Why is the “powers of death” rendering problematic compared to “gates of Hades” or, what you suggested, “gates of hell”? Is it simply not word for word?

“Gates of Hades” may be the literal, but the Church - and just about anyone who often quotes this verse - uses “gates of hell”.
“Powers of death” is a bit of a stretch, no?

“Behold the man” is the more preferred way of rendering that passage, correct?

Absolutely!!! “Ecce homo!” There is some artwork with this Latin title; “Here is (look at) the man!” Yeah, right.

Do you mean John 7:53–8:11 and Mark 16:9–20, which were restored in the 1971 version, or are you referencing other passages?

No, these they restored under considerable pressure from some Protestants, even. But there are many in Luke’s Gospel, as you’ll see in that reference.

Finally, does anyone know the significance of “God” being changed to “the angels” in Psalm 8:5?

Hearken ye: the Psalms from the NAB 1970 edition (issued originally as the Confraternity ed. “Job-Sirach” volume of 1955) renders this as “the angels”. BTW - this is ONE of the best translations of the Psalms!

Thanks

 

[mmortal03]

Douay Rheims: Challoner Edition:
Isaiah 7:14: “virgin”
Psalm 8:5: “Thou hast made him a little less than the angels”
Matthew 16:18: “gates of Hell”
Luke 1:34: “How shall this be”
John 19:5: “Behold the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “mercy”, “***”
Exodus 15:13: “mercy”

Original 1965 RSVCE and Ignatius Bible First Edition:
(based on the 1965 RSVCE)
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, “***”
Exodus 15:13: “steadfast love”
Archaic language spoken to God.
Full pronunciation marks on names.
Psalms: “double numbering” from 11 to 148.

Ignatius Bible RSV Second Catholic Edition:
(based on the 1965 RSVCE and Ignatius First Edition)
Isaiah 7:14: uses Septuagint “virgin”
Psalm 8:5: uses Septuagint “Yet you have made him little less than the angels”
Matthew 16:18: “gates of Hades”, footnote “powers of death”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “mercy”, “donkey”
Exodus 15:13: “merciful love”
Only Archaic language in a few specific cases.
“semi” pronunciation marks on names.
Psalms: “double numbering” from 11 to 148.

Oxford Press/Scepter RSVCE Compact Edition (and possibly the new Reader’s Edition, we will have to see once it is released): **
(presumably based on the 1971 RSV and compared to the 1965 RSVCE?)
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How shall this be”
John 19:5: “Behold, the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one flesh”, no footnote
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, "*"
Exodus 15:13: “steadfast love”
Archaic language spoken to God.
“semi” pronunciation marks on names.
Psalms: No “double numbering” from 11 to 148.

On all of these editions, Luke 1:28 is rendered “Hail, full of grace”, and throughout the Holy Spirit is refered to with “whom” or “who” instead of “which”.

 

[SFH]

*

SFH:

. The RSV-CE published by Oxford press received an imprimatur from Cardinal Cushing of Boston (it does not contain the phrase “full of grace” and is based on the 1971 revision to the New Testament).

My Scepter/Oxford Press does contain"full of grace"

Imprimatur:
Gordon Joseph
Archbishop of Saint Andrew and Edinburgh

Nihil Obstat
Thomas Hanlon S.T.L.,L.S.S. ,PH.L.

Foward by John Cardinal Heenan,Archbishop of Westminster

Your translation is probably the same as the Ignatius RSV-CE (first edition). It also has an imprimatur and nihil obstat from Rev. Gordon Joseph Grey and Rev. Thomas Hanlon.

The 1971 RSV New Testament (also published by Oxford Press) doesn’t contain the phrase “full of grace” and it received an imprimatur from Cardinal Cushing.

 

[mmortal03]

Dear mmortal03,

Actually, from the way this thread has grown since the publication of that RSV-2CE, I wouldn’t exactly say we’re going in the right direction. I mean, we have Ignatius RSV-CE, Scepter RSV-CE, supposedly an Oxford RSV-CE, the Ignatius RSV-2CE, the RSV 2nd ed. NT; arrrghh!

I think there are now way-y-y-y too many editions of the RSV-CE, don’t you think?

Well, the Scepter and Oxford, depending on if the reader’s version of the Oxford version turns out to be the same as the compact, are one and the same, so really, I don’t mind there being the three different Catholic Editions. And, practically speaking, no one really needs the Ignatius Bible First Edition any more, because both the Second Edition and the Oxford Press Edition are both better than it in their own ways.

No, per my research, and this is confirmed by the reference work I cited, the RSV NT has no less than FOUR editions: the original 1946, another in 1952 (when OT was published), a 1959 corrected edition (based on (name removed by moderator)ut from users!), and the 1971 second edition. The RSV-CE was supposedly derived from the 1959 edition.

Interesting that they changed the NT when they added the OT, and also that they “corrected” the OT and/or NT when they added the deuterocanonical books in 1959. Can you specify the changes that occured in these two cases?

Why is the “powers of death” rendering problematic compared to “gates of Hades” or, what you suggested, “gates of hell”? Is it simply not word for word?

“Gates of Hades” may be the literal, but the Church - and just about anyone who often quotes this verse - uses “gates of hell”.
“Powers of death” is a bit of a stretch, no?

I have read elsewhere that “powers of death” is actually a percevied meaning behind that verse, and that it doesn’t actually refer to Satan’s Hell at all, hence, “Hades” or “netherworld” being used in literal contexts (as in the original NAB 1st Edition?). I will have to look that up for you. To me, either is ok, but then, ignorance is bliss at times!

Do you mean John 7:53–8:11 and Mark 16:9–20, which were restored in the 1971 version, or are you referencing other passages?

No, these they restored under considerable pressure from some Protestants, even. But there are many in Luke’s Gospel, as you’ll see in that reference.

I see. So these passages in Luke are STILL relegated to footnotes in these newer editions of the RSV:CE?

 

[mmortal03]

SFH:

*

Your translation is probably the same as the Ignatius RSV-CE (first edition). It also has an imprimatur and nihil obstat from Rev. Gordon Joseph Grey and Rev. Thomas Hanlon.

The 1971 RSV New Testament (also published by Oxford Press) doesn’t contain the phrase “full of grace” and it received an imprimatur from Cardinal Cushing.*

SFH, please see the bible comparisons above. His Scepter Edition is NOT the same as the Ignatius First Edition.

 

[mmortal03]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral*, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals**,

*, ** footnote: Two Greek words are rendered by this expression

jpy15026, is that what your footnote actually says, or are you paraphrasing it?

Thanks!

 

[campion]

mortal, that’s what my RSV-CE states as well.

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03:

jpy15026, is that what your footnote actually says, or are you paraphrasing it?

Thanks!

Yep,Verbatim!

 

[mmortal03]

Ok, well the 2nd Catholic Edition states in the footnotes:

6:9: the immoral: literally, “fornicators.”
6:9: the homosexuals: Greek has “effeminate nor sodomites.” The apostle condemns, not the inherent tendencies of such, but the indulgence of them.

That’s what it says in the footnotes of the Ignatius First Editon as well.

jpy15026, It will be interesting to see how much the Reader’s Edition footnotes will differ from the Ignatius Editions. I doubt it will be much. As far as the compact edition, it looks like there isn’t much point in comparing its footnotes to the 2nd edition, simply because this example shows us that the compact edition (naturally) has abridged footnotes.

 

[SFH]

mmortal03:

SFH:

SFH, please see the bible comparisons above. His Scepter Edition is NOT the same as the Ignatius First Edition.

If that’s the case, then I think you’re right. It’s a serious problem if some of the publishers are changing words to a text that previously received an imprimatur and telling people that the text they’re reading is the one that received the imprimatur.

Not to harp on the Ignatius RSV-CE Second Edition, but Job Chapter 11 is a perfect example of the silliness of some of the changes made in the Second Edition. A “wild donkey” is a contradiction of terms. A donkey is by definition a domesticated ***. See Merriam-Webster On-line dictionary. They should have just left the First Edition alone on that one.

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03:

Ok, well the 2nd Catholic Edition states in the footnotes That’s what it says in the footnotes of the Ignatius First Editon as well

My Ignatius 1st edition and my Scepter are the same footnotes for 1 Cor 6:9:

• Two Greek words are rendered by this expression

They both read ,in the appendix of my Scepter and Ignatius:
6:9: the immoral: literally, “fornicators.”
6:9: the homosexuals: Greek has “effeminate nor sodomites.” The apostle condemns, not the inherent tendencies of such, but the indulgence of them.

Are you confusing the two ?( footnotes, in the text, and “explanatory notes” appendix one ,at the end of the Testaments)

 

[jpy15026]

*Job Chapter 11 is a perfect example of the silliness of some of the changes made in the Second Edition. A “wild donkey” is a contradiction of terms. *

Scepter reads:
Job11:12
But a stupid man will get understanding, when a wild ***’s colt is born a man.

 

[mmortal03]

jpy15026:

mmortal03:

Ok, well the 2nd Catholic Edition states in the footnotes…

My Ignatius 1st edition and my Scepter are the same footnotes for 1 Cor 6:9:

• Two Greek words are rendered by this expression

They both read ,in the appendix of my Scepter and Ignatius:
6:9: the immoral: literally, “fornicators.”
6:9: the homosexuals: Greek has “effeminate nor sodomites.” The apostle condemns, not the inherent tendencies of such, but the indulgence of them.

Are you confusing the two ?( footnotes, in the text, and “explanatory notes” appendix one ,at the end of the Testaments)

Ok. I just rechecked it. Yeah, I didn’t know that the Ignatius Bible First Edition also had footnotes AS WELL AS the Appendix 1 explanatory notes. This is because, in the Ignatius Second Edition, all the explanatory notes were moved to footnotes, I just made that assumption when I checked on Amazon.com.

 

[jpy15026]

Scepter: Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into* your kingdom.”

*footnote: Other ancient authorities read *in *

Ignatius: Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.*

*footnote: Greek kingdom

Douay Rheims LUKE 23:42
And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.”

 

[mmortal03]

jpy15026:

Scepter: Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into* your kingdom.”

*footnote: Other ancient authorities read *in *

Ignatius: Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.*

*footnote: Greek kingdom

Douay Rheims LUKE 23:42
And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.”

On that note, because of what we found out above about Oxford Press making their RSVCE based on the 1971 RSV, and the fact that the 1971 RSV reads the same way as your Scepter in most of these cases, I am going to hypothesize that the majority of the differences between the Scepter/Oxford Press Edition and the Ignatius First Edition/1965 RSVCE are going to be the differences between the 1971 RSV and the 1959 RSV, respectively. The Catholic changes that were made in each will be in there as well, but primarily, they will be minimal. We need to add to the above listing what the 1971 RSV says in each case, and then what the 1959 RSV says in each case, and by doing that, we will be able to determine which was a Catholic change, and which was simply an RSV change.

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03

Do you want to add these for an updated list
I don’t have Ignatius 2nd.Edition to complete it (in red)

Ignatius 1st
Job11:12
But a stupid man will get understanding, when a wild ***'s colt is born a man.

*Ignatius 2nd. *
Job11:12
A “wild donkey”

Scepter
Job11:12
But a stupid man will get understanding, when a wild ***'s colt is born a man.

DouayRheims
Job11:12
A vain man is lifted up into pride, and thinketh himself born free like a wild ***'s colt

Ignatius 1st.
Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.*
*footnote: Greek kingdom

Ignatius 2nd.
Luke 23:42
???

Scepter:
Luke 23:42
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into* your kingdom.”
*footnote: Other ancient authorities read in

DouayRheims
LUKE 23:42
And he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.”

Scepter, footnotes and* no* cross references, the Appendix 1 explanatory notes at end of Testaments

Ignatius First Edition, footnotes and cross references, the Appendix 1 explanatory notes at end of Testaments.

Ignatius Second Edition, all the explanatory notes were moved to footnotes
**Cross references???