Rubrical questions

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

yeah this will be a boring thread
After watching the Pontifical High Mass in the Extraordinary Form on EWTN at midnight, the day it was on, I remembered some old questions that I thought of before but never got answered.

1. The bishop has the right to replace “Dominus vobiscum” with “Pax vobis,” but when? “Dominus vobiscum” occurs 5 times during the Mass, 4 of which are by the celebrant. During which times is he allowed to do so? Bishop Perry (I believe that is his name) used it only before the Collect.
2. During the Introit, I believed the schola (who did very good) said the refrain three times, with the verse between the first time and the Gloria Patri the second time. I thought the Introit had to be sung straight through, like every other sung proper during the Mass. I have heard both. Who is right?
3. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?
4. When is the Gloria and Credo chanted at Mass? is there a rule, like, “the Gloria is said at all double feasts,” or something?
5. what is the difference between singles and doubles, then those of the first class, second, etc.?
6. In the Gloria, the words are, Gloria in excelsis Deo, but in the Latin Gospel of Luke, it is, 14 Gloria in altissimis Deo,
   et in terra pax hominibus bonæ voluntatis.
   which is different. Is there a reason for this?
   If anyone can help it will be greatly appreciated. This will help me for my series on the Classical Mass on my blog.
   Pax et bonum, Joseph

 

[malphono]

yeah this will be a boring thread
After watching the Pontifical High Mass in the Extraordinary Form on EWTN at midnight, the day it was on, I remembered some old questions that I thought of before but never got answered.

1. The bishop has the right to replace “Dominus vobiscum” with “Pax vobis,” but when? “Dominus vobiscum” occurs 5 times during the Mass, 4 of which are by the celebrant. During which times is he allowed to do so? Bishop Perry (I believe that is his name) used it only before the Collect.
2. During the Introit, I believed the schola (who did very good) said the refrain three times, with the verse between the first time and the Gloria Patri the second time. I thought the Introit had to be sung straight through, like every other sung proper during the Mass. I have heard both. Who is right?
3. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?
4. When is the Gloria and Credo chanted at Mass? is there a rule, like, “the Gloria is said at all double feasts,” or something?
5. what is the difference between singles and doubles, then those of the first class, second, etc.?
6. In the Gloria, the words are, Gloria in excelsis Deo, but in the Latin Gospel of Luke, it is, 14 Gloria in altissimis Deo,
   et in terra pax hominibus bonæ voluntatis.
   which is different. Is there a reason for this?
   If anyone can help it will be greatly appreciated. This will help me for my series on the Classical Mass on my blog.
   Pax et bonum, Joseph

OK, I’ll take a stab at it:

(1) I believe that a bishop says “Pax vobis” in lieu of “Dominus Vobiscum” at the collect.
(2) The Introit has a proper verse, followed by a psalm verse and the doxology, at the end of which the proper verse is repeated.
(3) I believe the correct spelling is “quotidianum” but it is often pronounced “co”. Merely a pronunciational variation.
(4) Yes. They’re found in the rubrics of the editio typica.
(5) ditto
(6) the words are synonymous but I don’t where the variant used liturgically in the EF originated. I do know that the Syriac text of Lk 2:14 is identical with the form used in the various Syriac liturgies.

 

[tee_eff_em]

1. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?

(3) I believe the correct spelling is “quotidianum” but it is often pronounced “co”. Merely a pronunciational variation.

Both spellings are “correct”, merely variant. (Lewis&Short calls *quotid- *“less correct”, by which I suspect it means “less classical”).
It means “of every day, daily”.

tee

 

[bpbasilphx]

(6) the words are synonymous but I don’t where the variant used liturgically in the EF originated. I do know that the Syriac text of Lk 2:14 is identical with the form used in the various Syriac liturgies.

---

The Liturgical Latin texts of both the Gloria and Pater are based on the Old Latin versions (collectively called Vetus Italica or Vetus Latina). Since these were already the “received texts” of these prayers, they were left alone, even though the Vulgate uses “altissimus” i/o “excelsis” and “panem superstantialem” (which literally translates the Greek EPIOUSION) instead of the Liturgical "quotidianem."

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

As far as excelsis/quotidianum, I am not troubled as long as I know that they mean the same thing as the original Greek scriptures, or have a good reason to be that way. From what I read, the Gloria comes from the Eastern Church, but enough has been changed for one to not even bother comparing the two(phrase added, phrase taken out, faulty translation to Latin, etc.)
So, if altissimus and excelsis are almost the same meaning, it’s no big deal for me.
Thanks all for your help. anyone else know anything?

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

I cannot find the editio typica online as of yet. If anyone knows the answers to when the Gloria and Credo are chanted please let me know.

 

[AJV]

yeah this will be a boring thread
After watching the Pontifical High Mass in the Extraordinary Form on EWTN at midnight, the day it was on, I remembered some old questions that I thought of before but never got answered.

1. The bishop has the right to replace “Dominus vobiscum” with “Pax vobis,” but when? “Dominus vobiscum” occurs 5 times during the Mass, 4 of which are by the celebrant. During which times is he allowed to do so? Bishop Perry (I believe that is his name) used it only before the Collect.

The Dominus Vobiscum occurs 8 times in the Mass, and as mentioned previously, is replaced only before the Collect.

1. During the Introit, I believed the schola (who did very good) said the refrain three times, with the verse between the first time and the Gloria Patri the second time. I thought the Introit had to be sung straight through, like every other sung proper during the Mass. I have heard both. Who is right?

I think it could be allowed since the Graduale allows for the repitition of the antiphon with other verses of the psalm, if the entry is prolonged.

1. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?

It’s a matter of classical spelling. In older missals while you’ll find it spelt with a “qu”, the 1962 returns to spelling it with a “c”.

1. When is the Gloria and Credo chanted at Mass? is there a rule, like, “the Gloria is said at all double feasts,” or something?

Which period are you referring to? The rules have changed slightly in history.

1. what is the difference between singles and doubles, then those of the first class, second, etc.?

Agagin, for which period, and with respect to what? The manner of celebrating Mass? Divine Office? Other Masses allowed?

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

I guess I mean our modern 1962 era.
Btw the sancta missa site says quotidianum, I imagine the syllable quo is hard to pronounce. But you said the updated missal said co… There’s a priest I know who could answer this I can get back to you.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

Now I have to count dominus vobiscums
1 before collect
2 before gospel
3 before offertorium
4 during preface dialogue
5 during postcommunio
6 before the Ite missa est
What am I missing?

 

[preV2tradcath]

Now I have to count dominus vobiscums
1 before collect
2 before gospel
3 before offertorium
4 during preface dialogue
5 during postcommunio
6 before the Ite missa est
What am I missing?

There is a dominus vobiscum at the end of the prayers at the foot of the altar, just before he goes up to the altar. Also there is one before the last Gospel.

 

[AJV]

I guess I mean our modern 1962 era.

The Gloria is said:

• whenever the Te Deum is said at Matins, and the Mass corresponds to that Office. Also, by extension, in festive Masses of saints (i.e. Mass of saints occurring on that day in the martyrology, or whose feast is impeded)
• all non-penitential Votive Masses not of the 4th Class, however, always for the angels and the BVM on Saturday
• the Masses of the Triduum (i.e. Holy Thursday and Easter Vigil)

The Credo is said on all Sundays, Feasts and Votives of the I Class, Feasts of the Lord and the Virgin which are II Class, the natale (birthday) of apostles and evangelists (including St. Barnabas) and the Cathedra Petri. Note that its only the natale feasts, not multiple other feasts of apostles.

The 1962 missal abandoned the distinction of Doubles, Simples, etc. for the simpler ranking of I, II, III and IV Class. Do you want to know something about those days, or some aspect of the ‘double’ system prior to 1961?

Btw the sancta missa site says quotidianum, I imagine the syllable quo is hard to pronounce. But you said the updated missal said co… There’s a priest I know who could answer this I can get back to you.

As far as I know- which is limited- they are pronounced more-or-less the same. The 1962 missal usually opted for similar preferences in spelling like ‘i’ instead of ‘j’.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

does anything know anything about the classification system of feast? I have no idea.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

“3. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?”

In addition to the other comments, the pronunciation of “quotidianum” may vary depending on the native language of the speaker. An English speaker would likely pronounce it qu as in ‘quick’ while a Spanish speaker would pronounce qu with a hard ‘k’ sound.

 

[AJV]

does anything know anything about the classification system of feast? I have no idea.

Before 1956 - Double I Class, Double II Class, Greater Double, Double, Semidouble, Simple
1956-1961/2 - the same, without Semidouble.
1961/2 - I Class, II Class, III Class (there is also IV Class, but no feasts are ranked so)

“3. During the Pater Noster, there is a word I’ve heard pronounced two different ways: quotidianum I have heard pronounced, and am 100% sure I’ve seen spelled, cotidianum. I do not know what the words mean to distinguish the correct way. Which is right?”

In addition to the other comments, the pronunciation of “quotidianum” may vary depending on the native language of the speaker. An English speaker would likely pronounce it qu as in ‘quick’ while a Spanish speaker would pronounce qu with a hard ‘k’ sound.

You reminded me of the time I served the Traditional Mass at a pilgrimage site for a visiting priest. Zanktuz, Zanktuz, Zanktuz…