Rubrics of the Mass

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🙂 Does the bishop of the diocese have the authority to alter, change or disrgard published liturgical norms specifically in regard to consecrating the wine in a glass decanter? Are there any canon laws which apply in this case?
 
Don_Ross said:
🙂 Does the bishop of the diocese have the authority to alter, change or disrgard published liturgical norms specifically in regard to consecrating the wine in a glass decanter? Are there any canon laws which apply in this case?
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The US Bishops are in the midst of a Canon Law debate on the subject.

The prohibition came in Redemptonis Sacramentum, a document from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

The issue is in regards to the the nature of this document. Certain diocese have used flagons long enough for their use to be “Particular Law” for that diocese.

Congregational documents of the R.S. nature don’t normally supercede Particular Law unless they say so.

So several US Bishops asked the CDWDS if it was the intent of this document to overide Particular Law, and then the CDWDS replied that it did.

So those bishops appealed, saying that the CDWDS doesn’t have the authority to rule on this matter (which is a really big stretch to claim that, since those bishops sumbitted the * dubium* to the CDWDS in the first place. Why submit a question to a Dicastery that you don’t think has the authority in the first place)

Anyhow, the bishops have appealed that to the Pope Himself, who has not issued a ruling yet.
 
Dear Father(s),

Today, Sunday, the priest where I attended Mass, consecrated the wine in a big gold pitcher. After the Lamb of God, the EMHC’s paraded up to the altar and one of the men divided the consecrated wine into four smaller chalices. It is my understanding that once the wine is consecrated into the Body and Blood of Christ, it cannot be divided. Can a priest divide it. I am quite sure I am correct in this assumption, but need clarification.

If this parish is wrong, how can I call it to the priest’s attention that I am aware of this particular action and would like to see it corrected, without being too critical. Also, at daily Mass, the EMHC’s still purify the sacred vessels.

I feel that it is my responsibility to say something because I know what is correct. The rest of the congregation doesn’t know up from down when it comes to the GIRM.

God Bless.
 
It is wrong and an insult to our Lord to do so.

This unfortunately is common in many parishes and the Bishops aware it is wrong. Unfortunately many have been hampered by militant dissenters who have made them scared to enforce the truth.
In fact in my diocese the Bishop explains that it is wrong and that we do not have permission to do so but are requesting it from the Vatican since it is our custom. He then mentions that we can continue doing so since we are asking for permission.
This is not obedience or very honest but unfortunately is the mentality of many dioceses in this country.

This happens at my parish, but rather than just raise a stink about it which would just be ignored I am waiting and getting more involved. Sometimes you need to close your eyes and just pray until you can be more obedient to God.

In Los Angeles their excuse is that they do not divide it beforehand just in case of spillage. Which is absolute stupidity as if the Altar gets larger after the consecration and spilling wine is worse than spilling the precious Blood of Jesus.
But sometimes we need to be patient as insulting our Lord is in vogue these days.

God Bless
Scylla
 
From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
"[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms. "

The document has in its conclusion:
"This Instruction, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments by mandate of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the same Pontiff on the Solemnity of St. Joseph, 19 March 2004, and he ordered it to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned. … "

The full text is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .
 
John_Lilburne said:
From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
"[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms. "

The document has in its conclusion:
"This Instruction, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments by mandate of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the same Pontiff on the Solemnity of St. Joseph, 19 March 2004, and he ordered it to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned. … "

The full text is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .
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Good for you!
It’s the RS!
 
Thank you all so much. I know that I am correct in my thinking about this, and I can’t believe that these parishes keep doing this. I am going to tell the pastor and assistant pastors that I can no longer attend their parish, even though there is Perpetual Adoration, and other things that may be orthodox, although , not many, I cannot, in good conscience attend when I see they are being disobedient.

Do you think that is too heavy.:mad:
 
coeyannie said:
Thank you all so much. I know that I am correct in my thinking about this, and I can’t believe that these parishes keep doing this. I am going to tell the pastor and assistant pastors that I can no longer attend their parish, even though there is Perpetual Adoration, and other things that may be orthodox, although , not many, I cannot, in good conscience attend when I see they are being disobedient.

Do you think that is too heavy.:mad:
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Yes. Running away won’t solve the problem.
Stay and try to help resolve the issues.
 
coeyannie said:
Thank you all so much. I know that I am correct in my thinking about this, and I can’t believe that these parishes keep doing this. I am going to tell the pastor and assistant pastors that I can no longer attend their parish, even though there is Perpetual Adoration, and other things that may be orthodox, although , not many, I cannot, in good conscience attend when I see they are being disobedient.

Do you think that is too heavy.:mad:
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Do you know for sure that there is a parish in your area that is better than this one?
If not, stay.

If there is, talk with your feet. We send a message to our Diocese when we take our time, talent and money to the parish that fits our needs.
 
There definitely are parishes more orthodox than this one. In fact, I don’t even belong to this parish. I go to 6:30 am Mass because it is the earliest one within 3 miles of my house. I can go to 6:00 am Mass at my parish, 14 miles away, very orthodox. It’s just that I am lazy. Maybe this is God’s way of telling me to sacrifice some sleep and go where there is constant obedience. 👍
 
coeyannie said:
There definitely are parishes more orthodox than this one. In fact, I don’t even belong to this parish. I go to 6:30 am Mass because it is the earliest one within 3 miles of my house. I can go to 6:00 am Mass at my parish, 14 miles away, very orthodox. It’s just that I am lazy. Maybe this is God’s way of telling me to sacrifice some sleep and go where there is constant obedience. 👍
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You are very blessed!
You won’t miss that 1/2 hour sleep at all!
 
coeyannie said:
Thank you all so much. I know that I am correct in my thinking about this, and I can’t believe that these parishes keep doing this. I am going to tell the pastor and assistant pastors that I can no longer attend their parish, even though there is Perpetual Adoration, and other things that may be orthodox, although , not many, I cannot, in good conscience attend when I see they are being disobedient.

Do you think that is too heavy.:mad:
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I hate to sound like Nurse Ratchet of *One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest *(didn’t she have a good line about “someone else’s problem”?), but I, too, think you should at least draw someone’s attention to the matter. Have you not met with anyone on that parish’s Liturgy Committee? I would see what good you can do for the parish before giving them up for good. Maybe that’s what you were sent there for, you never know!

Peace all.
 
When do you think the Pope will reply? And is there somplace where you can find it when he does?. It seems to me that GIRM #283 requires the bishop to stay within the limits of particular law and is required by canon law 392 to enforce it. Also I believe that there is a canon law 135-2 that does not let a lessor authority change a law made by a higher authority. Is that correct? So the question boils down to: can particular law be changed and who has the authority to do it?:confused:
 
Don_Ross said:
When do you think the Pope will reply? And is there somplace where you can find it when he does?. It seems to me that GIRM #283 requires the bishop to stay within the limits of particular law and is required by canon law 392 to enforce it. Also I believe that there is a canon law 135-2 that does not let a lessor authority change a law made by a higher authority. Is that correct? So the question boils down to: can particular law be changed and who has the authority to do it?:confused:
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What is “particular law”?
 
I feel your pain! I just stepped down from being EMHC captain. Our priest and bishop say they’re working on it. The indult was for 3 years. The expiration has been a year. The official “no” to EMHC purifying from the pope was on 10/06. How long does it take to fix things? We also have several other issues such as pouring cosecrated wine into “glass cups”. It would be so easy to fix things and I’m frustrated.
 
Don_Ross said:
When do you think the Pope will reply? And is there somplace where you can find it when he does?. It seems to me that GIRM #283 requires the bishop to stay within the limits of particular law and is required by canon law 392 to enforce it. Also I believe that there is a canon law 135-2 that does not let a lessor authority change a law made by a higher authority. Is that correct? So the question boils down to: can particular law be changed and who has the authority to do it?:confused:
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Stick around here.
I’m sure you’ll hear about it!!!
 
thistle said:
What is “particular law”?
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Particular Law is law that governs only a part of the Church, not the whole.

This is the term that applies to Law from either a Bishop (for his own diocese) or from a National synod (such as the USCCB) which governs a nation.

This differs from Universal Law, which applies to the entire Roman Church.

An example of Particular Law would be a bishop declaring that congregations are to remain standing after the Agnus Dei. Universal Law allows for the bishop to set Particular Law in this matter. And that rubric would not apply outside that particular bishop’s own diocese, but all within that diocese would be obligated to observe it.
 
Well folks, here is the reply I received from the pastor of the Church I attended where the consecrated wine was poured into individual Chalices.

*Thanks for your comments.

God Bless you in your decision. If I remember the teaching of Jesus correctly, he did not affirm law or rubrics as the primary religious value.
While I believe that we should be faithful to the rubrics, at the same time I know that Jesus often offended those who made the law and rubrics too important…in fact he sometime when out of his way to break the rubrics about the Sabbath (one of the Ten Commandments) and ritual washing and other
religious rubrics that had the force of law among the religious people of his day.

Sometimes simple people know the values of the gospel better than those who know the rubrics. I think that is pretty clear in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe the people who pay more attention to the spiritual impact of the Eucharist and worry less about rubrics know the mind and heart of Jesus better, even though you say that they do not know up from down about the Mass. Maybe that is why Jesus preferred to call sinners rather than the law abiding “self-righteous.” In the end it is not about being nit-picky.
It is about having the mind and heart of Christ in giving priority to the values of various aspects of the gospel. The gospel is always the rule of life for the Church and rubrics, while important, must not be given more importance than Jesus would give them.

I hope that you find the mind and heart of Christ, not just the
rubrics, wherever you worship.

Thanks for sharing your concerns. I do appreciate you brining this to my attention.
I don’t know how to take this. How can you not pay attention to the Rubrics of the Mass. I don’t know if I should be insulted or very insulted, or nothing.

Help me out:p**
 
WOW! What a response! I don’t think I would know how to feel after that one. It is such an easy thing to fix, and yet no one wants to fix it. All you have to do is put the cups on the altar and fill them prior to the consecration. I know what you are up against. Like I said in my earlier thread, we have many important issues that are easily fixed, but no one is doing anything. And the issues are important when they concern anything relating to the consecration. I can see how some may nitpick, but not on this issue. I feel your pain.
 
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