Rubrics or GIRM

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THurifer2 said:
Changing the words of Mass is an abuse…and can be a grave matter…
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Depends who you ask… one priest said the following: “Nor do I suffer the belief that the words of the Sacramentary have to be reproduced exactly.”

(Note: I entirely disagree with that sentiment. Changing the words of Mass is a change expressly guarded against by numerous documents on the liturgy, including Sacrosanctum Concilium of Vatican II.)
 
rrochon said:
If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved
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Thank you for mentioning this.
I am a revert. As a former protestant, I admit I kinda liked it when I came back. As part of my “reversion” I then brought my Dad back to Mass. He was horrified. He was a heart patient and couldn’t get over the thought of how many germs he would get just going to Mass. He didn’t continue coming with me on a regular basis after that, and died shortly thereafter.

I can’t help thinking that if the Church had stayed somewhat similar in appearance to what he was raised with, he would have come back and stayed.

Thank Jesus, though, I was able to arrange a Mass of Christian Burial by my priest who he did enjoy as a homilist.
 
THurifer2 said:
It is not mandated though is it?

Who is more in the wrong, the person who makes the other person uncomfortable by outstreching thier hand or the person who declines?

Which one is following the correct way?

This whole issue is silly…I think. The prayer is a vertical prayer. The holy Father has indicated in his book the spirit of the Liturgy (when he was Joe) that there are exclusively vertical elements of the mass.

Paix you must at least admit that the action of holding hands is an innovation that came from a place other than those who are entrusted with charge of our Liturgy.
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I agree. I’ve never been a fan of it; it’s always seemed way too centered on mere emotions and feelings. At the same time, you really can’t legitimately legislate what people do with their hands. Even the Church has only limited jurisdiction in that area.

I’m more of a fan of the people either folding their hands or taking the Oremus position - a position that scholars say the early Christians took when praying - and is also not forbidden by the Church.
 
THurifer2 said:
Approved yes one by indult and the other by allowance.

I believe the previous poster was pointing out that the two practices were being done prior to being allowed. There is sufficient evidence that both were being practiced prior being allowed.

Pretty much adds emphasis to your previous point in saying that some things are done so commonly that they get approved at least more commonly here in the U.S. of A where there seems to be a climate of “detachement” from Rome.

Seems to be quite a bit of animosity towards the vatican nowadays.
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My point was that if something is done - even if it is done PRIOR to approval - it cannot legitmately be considered to be “wrong” because it was later affirmed.

Hence, the sentiment should not be “Communion in the hand is wrong, but it was done so much the Vatican caved”; the proper interpretation would be “Allthough it was not officially allowed at one time, the practice was later affirmed by the Church.”
 
japhy said:
Depends who you ask… one priest said the following: “Nor do I suffer the belief that the words of the Sacramentary have to be reproduced exactly.”

(Note: I entirely disagree with that sentiment. Changing the words of Mass is a change expressly guarded against by numerous documents on the liturgy, including Sacrosanctum Concilium of Vatican II.)
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If someone wants to make the liturgy up as they go, they should just become Baptist. They are allowed to ad lib all the want.
 
Another point being that Baptists wouldn’t mind you holding hands in Church either.

I am some what new to Rubrics and I am interested in learning more, but let me say this, if its not forbidden then why is it an abuse. Noise, an abuse, Changing the words of the liturgy, an abuse. But holding hands, an act of unity in faith, an abuse?

Protestantism is largely based on an individualistic relationship to the Lord. What is and always has been true of the Catholic Church is Her recognition of the necessity of corporate worship. Hence we pray with all the Saints. Something so undisruptive and meaningful ought to allowed. If we are not acting as one body then why do we all say the same words?

The Church even in liturgy should not feel obligated to regulate every movement or gesture. This ultra legalism is what tends to fuel critics and dismantle and over complicate what is really a beautiful thing. God’s creation worshiping Him.

:signofcross:
 
Channy said:
Another point being that Baptists wouldn’t mind you holding hands in Church either.

I am some what new to Rubrics and I am interested in learning more, but let me say this, if its not forbidden then why is it an abuse. Noise, an abuse, Changing the words of the liturgy, an abuse. But holding hands, an act of unity in faith, an abuse?

Protestantism is largely based on an individualistic relationship to the Lord. What is and always has been true of the Catholic Church is Her recognition of the necessity of corporate worship. Hence we pray with all the Saints. Something so undisruptive and meaningful ought to allowed. If we are not acting as one body then why do we all say the same words?

The Church even in liturgy should not feel obligated to regulate every movement or gesture. This ultra legalism is what tends to fuel critics and dismantle and over complicate what is really a beautiful thing. God’s creation worshiping Him.

:signofcross:
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Hi Channy,

In my experience with allowing the congregation to introduce 1 movement or gesture into the Mass, it won’t stop right there. I live in such a parish and I fear going to the next Sunday Mass.:eek:
 
Well I would agree that we must preserve orthodoxy. It is an unfortunate rarity.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
I agree. I’ve never been a fan of it; it’s always seemed way too centered on mere emotions and feelings.
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We we go home to visit my wife’s parents and attend their church the hand holding thing is Obligatory. In order to save my wife from shame and embarassment…I hold hands (small enough town for people to know my wife’s parents).

the church is a beautiful gothic style two spired church that has been preserved perfectly…the liturgy is the EXACT opposite. This parish does everything listed on CAF as abuses. I get a sick feeling in my stomach every time I have to go to Mass there…you know it is bad when you get a sick feeling in your stomach on the way into Mass. I walked out last year when the 3 member litrugy Ballet did their diddy up on the Altar…sigh!!!:dts:
 
THurifer2 said:
We we go home to visit my wife’s parents and attend their church the hand holding thing is Obligatory. In order to save my wife from shame and embarassment…I hold hands (small enough town for people to know my wife’s parents).

the church is a beautiful gothic style two spired church that has been preserved perfectly…the liturgy is the EXACT opposite. This parish does everything listed on CAF as abuses. I get a sick feeling in my stomach every time I have to go to Mass there…you know it is bad when you get a sick feeling in your stomach on the way into Mass. I walked out last year when the 3 member litrugy Ballet did their diddy up on the Altar…sigh!!!:dts:
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That sounds … interesting.
 
I have seen in the Anglican/ Episcopalian church after it started to relax its liturgical standards. Its scary when the Primate goes nuts. :eek:
 
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