Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works

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A Baptist friend of mine sent me the following article about Faith and Works from hs faith’s perspective. I see where it makes grave errors and conflicts with Church teaching but I need experts to properly. Catholic Answers is the right place IMO for that:rolleyes:…

P.S - It’s set in the format of a speech as this is the one presented by his Dad awhile ago. Sorry about that. His Dad’s a pastor BTW so he knows quite abit about Fundamentalism. That’s why Catholic Answers is my best bet on a formal rebuttal.
 
  1. Indispensable things is found in James 2:26 – “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
Sometimes we Baptists are accused of ignoring works because we declare salvation by grace through faith.
We believe there is a difference between grace and works.
We know where to put them…
There is no other way for us to be saved other than by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9)
o That’s why there’s a blood that has been shed…
Now let us settle this issue:
o Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
o James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man justifieth, and not by faith only”
Did you notice something?
Paul says that you are justified by faith without works
James says that you are not justified by faith without works. You are justified by faith and by works:
Romans 4:1-2 “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh hath found? “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God”
o Here, Abraham was justified by Faith!!!
James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works.”
James 2:23 “And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believe God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God”
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James was saying that Abraham was justified by works as well as faith.
Paul was saying that Abraham was justified by faith without works

Now which is right? James or Paul?
Listen carefully folks. – Paul was preaching to people who do have faith. While James was speaking to people who claim to have faith but prove their faith by their works.
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There are 2 types of justification. ==> Paul says God is our Judge and He is going to judge us according to our record, and God’s justice will judge us according to our faith
o That means being justified before God is determine by your faith in Christ.
o God will not justify you because you get baptised, because you join the church, because you live a good life, because you are a good husband, a good housewife, a good son, you repented of your sins and turn a new life and all that…
o You will be justified before God if you will put your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour and that faith is counted for your righteous deeds.

o On the other hand, James is not talking about being justified before God. — James is talking about being justified before man.
o In short we have two judges: (1) We have God who judge us
(2) A man who judges us
Code: 
Illustration:
o Is brother Ben a nice fellow? – Raise your hand. (I cant believe that he’s a nice fellow) Why do you think he is a nice fellow?
o Because you watch him how he behave
o Because he is a Christian
o Because you know he is a Christian and a leader of this church
o Because he lends you money
o Because he gives you gifts…
o I would say, Pastor Rey is a good pastor. Why? I have judge him. How did I judge him?
o By the way he behaves, by the way he preach, by his works

o Let me ask you, if you say Pastor Rey is a good pastor, is that because you think he has a great faith, because you see him doing a lot of good things for God, is it because he perform well his role as a pastor, etc.

So we have two judges. >> The one who judge as according to what is in our heart (faith in Christ) and the one who judge us according to our behaviour (how we act).
o Illustration:
o There are two types of hypocrites : One fellow does not have it and says he does; the other fellow has it but does not say he has it.
o Hypocrite #1 > A fellow who is not born again (not saved), but he acts like it. He is not really saved, but he comes to church. He tithes. He lives a clean life. He is faithful to the Lord. He reads his Bible. He prays. He teaches a Sunday school class. He may even be elected to the Deacon (Pastoral Member to us), but he is not born again.
o Hypocrite #2 > Here is a fellow who is saved, has it in his heart, trusted Jesus as personal Lord & Saviour but does not get baptised. He does not join the church. He does not read the Bible regularly. He does not pray. Is he really saved? Yes, he is saved, but he also is a hypocrite.
o This afternoon, you are a hypocrite if you belong to the church, but have not been born again. You are also a hypocrite if you have been born again and have not joined the church. You are also a hypocrite if you have been born again, but have not been baptised, not joined the church, do not live a good live, do not walk with God, and are not faithful.
o > Don’t you see? You are justified by faith before God, and God says it is okay.
o > You are justified by works before man, and man says it is okay because of the way he behaves.
o Now friends, here is what God is saying: If you want to go to Heaven, you then had better put your faith in Christ and get justified by your faith in Him. >> But if you want to live the Christian life, and be a good testimony, your neighbours will justify you by your works
o So if you want to get justified before God, put your faith in Christ. But if you want man to justify you, look like a Christian and let your works show that you are a Christian.
o Some people say, “I believe, I believe, I believe” — they don’t even come to church, don’t even serve God, don’t even pray, don’t even study their Bibles, don’t even witness, yet they say “I believe in God” — THAT IS BELYING THEIR DECLARATION THAT THEY HAVE FAITH IN GOD.

Conclusion:
Listen folks, we have heard testimonies from some brethren (hope many) in this church that they have been blessed with our fellowships, our faith, our doctrines, etc… There have a lot of changes in their lives because they practice what we preach. > " We have become justified before that lady or man. — How? By faith? No, by works.
 
I am no theologian, so YMMV, but I have been taught (and after years of reflection recognize the profound sense in this view) that one is saved by faith alone, but that one who is truly saved by faith alone will be doing works as a simple logical consequence of having faith. So doing works alone will not save you, but having faith will both save you and prompt you to do works, per one’s facilities and vocation.

In other words, the utterance “I am saved by my faith, so now I will not do works at all for any reason because I do not need them to be saved.” is evidence of a deficient faith. A consistent position would be “I am saved by my faith, and because of my faith I will do works as per my vocation/calling in the faith, despite knowing it is not these works themselves which save me.”
 
I’ve always believed that we are saved by Grace alone, but we are justified in the sight of God by our good works (corporal and spiritual works of mercy).
 
There is a lot in there that Catholics would agree with. As far as the errors are concerned, yes, there are some. But don’t shred the pastor’s sermon at the expense of your friendship with his son. I suggest you make a summary after the thread is long enough, and send an email to your friends father, and invite him to CAF, or Pat Madrid’s “Speak Your Mind” forum.
 
manygift1spirit said:
I am no theologian, so YMMV, but I have been taught (and after years of reflection recognize the profound sense in this view) that one is saved by faith alone, but that one who is truly saved by faith alone will be doing works as a simple logical consequence of having faith. So doing works alone will not save you, but having faith will both save you and prompt you to do works, per one’s facilities and vocation.

In other words, the utterance “I am saved by my faith, so now I will not do works at all for any reason because I do not need them to be saved.” is evidence of a deficient faith. A consistent position would be “I am saved by my faith, and because of my faith I will do works as per my vocation/calling in the faith, despite knowing it is not these works themselves which save me.”
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Amen!! You may not be a “theologian” but you have expressed some very sound theology!
 
Phil12123 said:
Amen!! You may not be a “theologian” but you have expressed some very sound theology!
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Very protestant theology that is and it is wrong theology also. We are not saved by faith. We are saved by GRACE. Faith is a work just as giving alms to the poor is a work. It is by God’s GRACE that we have faith and works. Protestants want to separate faith from works just as they want to separate water from Spirit in John 3. It is faith and works together not faith or works. One more thing, when you bandy about words like justification be sure you define the word as justification to protestants is a whole lot different than justification to Catholics. To protestants justification means to declare or pronounce one to be righteous or holy before God. But to Catholics it is different. Catholic definition of justificartion denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God’s preventing and helping grace. It also denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace.

In short, to protestants, it is once and done. But to Catholics justification requires that one continue in the state of justification which is sanctifying grace. In protestantism one is still justified even though that person commits mortal sins. In Catholicism sin [mortal sin] must be remitted before one regains justification. Protestantism has no way to deal with sin and therefore ignores it or sweeps it under the rug where, supposedly, God doesn’t see it. Thus the analogy of Luther comparing a justified man to a manure pile covered in new pure white snow. God only sees the snow and not the manure pile underneath and reckons the man to be justified. But to Catholics the justified man is free of his sins and therefore is no longer that manure pile but is transformed by God’s grace into something pleasing to God.
 
inkaneer said:
Very protestant theology that is and it is wrong theology also. We are not saved by faith. We are saved by GRACE. Faith is a work just as giving alms to the poor is a work. It is by God’s GRACE that we have faith and works. [snip]
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While you are right about grace, you have filled in blanks in my position in a way I would not have done so myself. God offers His grace to all, through which all can be saved. Faith is an acceptance of this gift. You are merely going further upstream, so to speak.
 
manygift1spirit said:
While you are right about grace, you have filled in blanks in my position in a way I would not have done so myself. God offers His grace to all, through which all can be saved. Faith is an acceptance of this gift. You are merely going further upstream, so to speak.
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No. True, we are saved by grace. But faith is more than just a mere acceptance of the gift. Faith itself is a work of the will and includes man’s repentance and co-operation in .
living in accord with God’s law. The Council of Trent dealt with this:

Canon IX of the Council of Trent states:

"CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Canon XII states:

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

And what of good works? First of all do not confuse ‘good works’ with Paul;s use of the word ‘works’ . Paul battled the Judiacizers who wanted Gentile converts to fulfill the Mosaic Law. His ‘works’ were works commanded by the Law such as circumcicision and the dietary laws. Paul was not referring to ‘good works’ such as feeding the hungry, etc.

And canon XXIV states:

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
 
manygift1spirit said:
I am no theologian, so YMMV, but I have been taught (and after years of reflection recognize the profound sense in this view) that one is saved by faith alone, but that one who is truly saved by faith alone will be doing works as a simple logical consequence of having faith. So doing works alone will not save you, but having faith will both save you and prompt you to do works, per one’s facilities and vocation.

In other words, the utterance “I am saved by my faith, so now I will not do works at all for any reason because I do not need them to be saved.” is evidence of a deficient faith. A consistent position would be “I am saved by my faith, and because of my faith I will do works as per my vocation/calling in the faith, despite knowing it is not these works themselves which save me.”
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So, the fact that one is doing works is evidence of being saved?
 
inkaneer said:
We are not saved by faith.
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We are saved by Faith.

(one can not say “we are not saved by faith”…for this is contrary to the Catholic faith…now i know where you were going with this…but on its own such a statement is incorrect…)

(more in next post)
 
Hello all,

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

We are saved by grace.

We are saved by faith. (one must of course understand Faith here in Paul’s sense)

We are saved by baptism.

It can happen that some have faith and never get to baptism.

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question…

In early Church – most converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. some it seems were infants (whole households) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

today with many children being born into Christian homes …it happens the other way around…most receive the faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older stage and so likely first have faith from hearing the Gospel. all is via grave. all is by the Holy Spirit…

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

For a beautiful rendering of the understanding of Faith and Works…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
 
Bookcat said:
Hello all,
  1. We are saved by Jesus Christ!
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Agree
Bookcat said:
  1. We are saved by grace.
Click to expand...
Agree
Bookcat said:
  1. We are saved by faith. (one must of course understand Faith here in Paul’s sense)
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We are saved by faith which is given to us, we don’t have to understand it in order to be saved by Jesus
Bookcat said:
4.We are saved by baptism.
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Not True. If we are saved by baptism, then point one (Jesus saves) would and could not be true. We are not saved by deeds done in righteousness by rather by His mercy
Bookcat said:
  1. It can happen that some have faith and never get to baptism.
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Agree, the faith given us causes us to acknowledge what Christ has done.
Bookcat said:
  1. It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…
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Faith, Saving Faith, given can happen any place including the baptismal. Faith is not infused but rather Faith is an action by the believer, it should never be consider a noun in the sense in which you are doing.
Bookcat said:
  1. It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question…
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Saving is done by Christ no matter how we look at the question. Salvation is unto God, and we are the object of His action.
Bookcat said:
In early Church – most converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. some it seems were infants (whole households) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…
Click to expand...
Again, faith is not a noun which can be infused but rather an action by the believer.
Bookcat said:
today with many children being born into Christian homes …it happens the other way around…most receive the faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older stage and so likely first have faith from hearing the Gospel. all is via grave. all is by the Holy Spirit…
Click to expand...
Your emphasis upon baptism for receiving faith is misplaced. The faith received does not as a majority of the time comes at baptism. Baptism is always an outward sign of an inward work which has been accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
Bookcat said:
All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

For a beautiful rendering of the understanding of Faith and Works…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
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I suggest and recommend the following:
For Regeneration:
monergism.com/directory/link_category/Regeneration/Contemporary-Essays–Articles/

For Faith and Works:
tecmalta.org/tft219.htm

There are many more great articles which if read with an open mind will open the eyes.
 
@unacanta,

I’m sorry but you’re going to have to expound upon how “baptism saves” contradicts in anyway with “Jesus saves”. Baptism saves, it’s an axiom. Christ made this clear. No one particular sacrament though, saves one absolutly, with out any possiblity of remission (on our part) through sin.
 
unacanta said:
Not True. If we are saved by baptism, then point one (Jesus saves) would and could not be true. We are not saved by deeds done in righteousness by rather by His mercy
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Baptism is very much part of it…and Christ commands it.

“Baptism… now saves you” (from first Peter 3:21)

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6: 3-4

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 (I used ESV for these quotes…an Evangelical edition)

You misunderstand what is meant by works of the law…or deeds or righteousness…

in anycase

Baptism is received… no one can baptize himself!

It is no more a “work” done by a person being baptized than is it a work of the baby to be born…

Baptism is a work of God. In fact when anyone baptizes…it is Christ who baptizes.
 
unacanta said:
Agree, the faith given us causes us to acknowledge what Christ has done.

Faith is not infused but rather Faith is an action by the believer, it should never be consider a noun in the sense in which you are doing.

Saving is done by Christ no matter how we look at the question. Salvation is unto God, and we are the object of His action.

Again, faith is not a noun which can be infused but rather an action by the believer.
Click to expand...
Hummm well you here contradict yourself. And you show my point.

You your self say…“the faith given us” !! 🙂

Faith is a gift from God. Thus it is infused. It is also something in which man is involved of course…but again it is God working in Man.

And yes salvation comes from Christ. We do not do anything to earn entering salvation…being "in Christ’.
 
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