Russian Orthodox Catholic Church?

[Dave_in_Dallas]

With regards to Russian Greek Catholic parishes:

These are almost like parishes of the OCA (Orthodox Church of America) in their liturgical life. Where they stand doctrinally probably ranges similar to many of the Eastern Catholic Churches on a continuum from Orthodox to Catholic (those who are “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” to the opposite extreme). The Russian Greek Catholics are noted for their fidelity to maintaining the authentic Slavic Byzantine tradition. A watchword they sometimes use was given by Pope Pius X: “Nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter.” (“No more, no less, no alteration.”)

Peter

What does the bolded line in the quote mean? Why wouldn’t they have the same doctrines? Maybe different disciplines…

 

[Cecilianus]

Beautiful church, is the church outside appearance really a byzantine art? i looks like a mosque except for the cross, i dont know if the current appearance of orthodox churches were influenced by the Ottoman Art or vice versa

My understanding is that Russian architecture was influenced by Mongol architecture, for practical reasons (they keep snow of the domes!).

 

[Hesychios]

My understanding is that Russian architecture was influenced by Mongol architecture, for practical reasons (they keep snow of the domes!).

Did the Mongols actually have an identifiable architecture? I don’t know enough about it but I had thought they were not great builders of permanent structures in their native setting.

One will see a Siberian style of Russian architecture, and I can’t say what the sources for these things are. Most of it is common sense, so those ‘steep-sided’ steeples and roofs are very common across the north.

The Rus, as I undserstand it, were more likely to work in brick and timber than brick and stone, so the east Roman domes were going to be modified into a new style just for that reason.

Here is a picture of my home parish (a copy of the Siberian style parish churches and missions - this one was designed by Louis Sullivan) …
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Louis_Sullivan_-exterior-Holy_Trinity_Russian%26_Greek_Orthodox_Church%2C_1121_North_Leavitt_Street%2C_Chicago%2C_Cook_County%2C_IL.jpg/488px-Louis_Sullivan_-exterior-Holy_Trinity_Russian%26_Greek_Orthodox_Church%2C_1121_North_Leavitt_Street%2C_Chicago%2C_Cook_County%2C_IL.jpg

Here is a Norwegian/Scandinavian church (if the link works …


Here is a church building from the Carpathian mountains …


They all seem to be influenced by a need to shed snow without collapsing and the predominant use of timber.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Did the Mongols actually have an identifiable architecture? I don’t know enough about it but I had thought they were not great builders of permanent structures in their native setting.

I too was always under the impression that the nomadic nature of Mongolian life on the steppes prevented the Mongolians from erecting permanent structures. But I guess you never know

 

[CB_Catholic]

I too was always under the impression that the nomadic nature of Mongolian life on the steppes prevented the Mongolians from erecting permanent structures. But I guess you never know

Wikipedia has an interesting article with pictures on Mongolian architecture and it’s history.

 

[Ignatios]

Beautiful church, is the church outside appearance really a byzantine art? i looks like a mosque except for the cross, i dont know if the current appearance of orthodox churches were influenced by the Ottoman Art or vice versa

From the sources that I studied, the Russians Churches were inspired by the Byzantine, but they had in some parts to build the Onion Domes because of the snow other than that the Russian still hold the true Byzantine customs and tradition interior and exterior except for the Onion Domes as I mentioned and the Greeks including the Antiochians, had added to the inside some minor things which the Russians did not, such as the throne of the Bishop usually it is to the right hand in the forefront of the Church by the choir.
As for the Mosques, you must remember that Islam came some 700 years after Christianity which it means that it is logical that the Muslims took lots of things from the Christians, such as the Mosques structures ( remember that many Mosques were built by the Christians such as the Mosque of the Rock in Jerusalem and if you go there you will see that on some of its pillars some Crosses or Christians symbols because the Mosques was built from the stones of a Church that was in the town of Baalbek in north eastern Lebanon and by the Christians) the Muslims also learned the chanting from the Antiochians, Also the way their faith was structured was taken from Christianity Also their prophet Mohammed was taught by A monk called " the Monk of al-bahirah" and his father-in-law from his first wife was a Priest, his name was " Warakah bin Nawfal", etc… I hope this helped a bit.
GOD bless you all†††

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Mongolian influences came into Rus’ not only because of invasions, but also quite naturally.

It was St Theodore, Prince of Smolensk, I believe it was who was sent as an emissary to the Mongols to deliver terms for a peace. The Mongol khan was quite impressed by the young prince and offered his daughter’s hand to him in marriage.

The prince told the khan that he was an Orthodox Christian and that his daughter would have to convert if he was to marry him. The khan agreed and even later allowed Orthodox Churches to be built in Mongolia, with missionaries etc. His two sons, half-Mongols, St Constantine and his brother St David are Orthodox saints and worked to spread Orthodox Christianity among the Mongols with their father.

Also, St Peter of the Tatar Horde was . . . the grandson of Genghis Khan, I believe, as well as an Orthodox Saint.

Alex

 

[Cecilianus]

Mongolian influences came into Rus’ not only because of invasions, but also quite naturally.

It was St Theodore, Prince of Smolensk, I believe it was who was sent as an emissary to the Mongols to deliver terms for a peace. The Mongol khan was quite impressed by the young prince and offered his daughter’s hand to him in marriage.

The prince told the khan that he was an Orthodox Christian and that his daughter would have to convert if he was to marry him. The khan agreed and even later allowed Orthodox Churches to be built in Mongolia, with missionaries etc. His two sons, half-Mongols, St Constantine and his brother St David are Orthodox saints and worked to spread Orthodox Christianity among the Mongols with their father.

Also, St Peter of the Tatar Horde was . . . the grandson of Genghis Khan, I believe, as well as an Orthodox Saint.

Alex

Kublai Khan’s sister and mother were Nestorians, and it was he who sent Mar Yabh-Allaha and Rabban Sawma to the West as emissaries seeking a political alliance against the Muslims. Mar Yabh-Allaha was delayed in Mesopotamia by the inconvenience of becoming Catholicos of Babylon and All the East, while Rabban Sawma ended up making it as far as Italy and France, saying Divine Liturgy in St. Peter’s Basilica and getting the Pope to send the pallium to Yabh-Allaha confirming their mutual communion. Unfortunately, the political alliance never materialized.

 

[tomharry]

thanks…

 

[tomharry]

really very good

 

[tomharry]

Unless the appellation “in communion with Rome” is attached. There are Catholic parishes in Russia that (correctly) use the title “Orthodox in communion with Rome”. I googled an Orthodox blog that was having a field day complaining about this, but I couldn’t find a link.

---

To your protection do we fly, O Mary Theotokos; despise, then, not our cry. From every peril shelter us, for you alone are immaculate – the Mother of God.

 

[tomharry]

really very nice site

 

[tomharry]

thanks for this site…

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Kublai Khan’s sister and mother were Nestorians, and it was he who sent Mar Yabh-Allaha and Rabban Sawma to the West as emissaries seeking a political alliance against the Muslims. Mar Yabh-Allaha was delayed in Mesopotamia by the inconvenience of becoming Catholicos of Babylon and All the East, while Rabban Sawma ended up making it as far as Italy and France, saying Divine Liturgy in St. Peter’s Basilica and getting the Pope to send the pallium to Yabh-Allaha confirming their mutual communion. Unfortunately, the political alliance never materialized.

There is an ongoing debate as to the extent of the Nestorian cultural influence on Mahayana Buddhism that will go on, I suppose.

And I would hope that the Pope would affirm his communion with “Assyrians” rather than with “Nestorians” .

As I understand it, there are no Assyrian monasteries left. What was fascinating about them was their seven-fold office and at each office they said three “marmitha” or “kathismata” of the psalter which was similar to the Byzantine psalter.

The Assyrian psalter had 21 “kathismata” so the psalter would be recited in full on a daily basis by the monks.

I recently came across references to the nine Biblical odes after the Byzantine psalter as the “21st Kathisma” but this is not an official definition.

Alex

 

[Cecilianus]

There is an ongoing debate as to the extent of the Nestorian cultural influence on Mahayana Buddhism that will go on, I suppose.

And I would hope that the Pope would affirm his communion with “Assyrians” rather than with “Nestorians” .

As I understand it, there are no Assyrian monasteries left. What was fascinating about them was their seven-fold office and at each office they said three “marmitha” or “kathismata” of the psalter which was similar to the Byzantine psalter.

The Assyrian psalter had 21 “kathismata” so the psalter would be recited in full on a daily basis by the monks.

I recently came across references to the nine Biblical odes after the Byzantine psalter as the “21st Kathisma” but this is not an official definition.

Alex

There was a good book on the subject under the (historically accurate, but in today’s context misleading) title The Jesus Sutras, showing the influence of Assyrian Christianity on Mahayana Buddhism, and also the slight influences that Byzantine Christianity (regarding the canon of Scripture, which was a bit truncated for Assyrians outside of China at that time) and Jainism (re their vegetarianism) on Chinese Christianity.

Kwan Yin or Kwannon was actually a male deity before the advent of Christianity and veneration of the Virgin Mary in China. Women were still considered so low on the chain of being that they were incapable of attaining salvation and thus forbidden to even become nuns, before Christianity came - while the name Kwan Yin remained the same, the being venerated now is not the old male deity, but Mary.

I stand corrected on calling Mar Yabh-Allaha and Rabban Sawma “Nestorians”. The Creed they recited for the Pope was accepted as Orthodox. Their story was preserved in an old Syriac manuscript translated by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge under the title “The Monks of Kublai Khan”.

 

[ILikeToBeCathol]

Is the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church in Russia & in Alaska with ROME!?
Is this Church under the POPE?

Are there many of these Churches in the US? Which states?
What language is the Mass in?

Thanks!
God Bless!

Yes the Russian Catholic Church is communion with Rome but it’s not Russian at all. It’s mean’t for Russian’s who want to come into communion with Rome but still want the Russian Orthodox liturgy. It doesn’t have a hierarchy and the priests are mainly Jesuits who have switched rites or are ordained by other Byzantine Catholic bishops… The odd thing about the Russian Catholic Church is that it’s mean’t to convert Russian’s to the Catholic faith but the members of it who are supposed to be converting the Russian’s (not necessarily the priests of the RCC but laity) to the Catholic faith strongly dislike the Russian’s for what happened during the USSR in the 1930’s to Ukraine. So, to be frank, the Russian Catholic Church is just a facade because how can you convert a people that you hate? I am a Russian who converted to the Catholic faith but I of the Roman Rite and I was fascinated with the Russian Byzantine Rite until I found out that it was only a facade and nothing more. You can’t have a Russian Catholic Church without Russian’s. They want to call it the Russian Catholic Church but they don’t actually want Russian’s in it even though that’s their mission.

P.S.
The Divine Liturgy (Holy Mass) is in Old Slavonic.