Russian Orthodox Church allows confession by phone or Skype during covid-19 shutdown

[ReaderT]

Is it just confession of one’s sins, or is absolution part of it as well? If the latter, how would the priest do that? Face the direction of where the penitent is (sort of like Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca) and pronounce words of absolution while making the sign of the cross in midair? Seriously — I am not trying to be “cute” or “clever”, I am trying to imagine the way absolution would be conferred after having received a letter, with the penitent present neither in actual fact nor by a virtual live electronic medium.

I don’t have the book in front of me (it’s checked out of the church library) but Abbot Nikon said something like he “absolved the penitent just as he would in regular confession” - which I assume means that he said the prayer of Absolution:

“May God Who, through Nathan the Prophet forgave David when confessed his sins; Peter when he wept
bitterly for his denial; the harlot who shed tears upon His feet; the Publican as well as the Prodigal: may this same God forgive you [Name], through me a sinner, everything both in this age and in the age to come; and may He make you stand uncondemned before His dread judgment seat. Having no further care for the sins you have confessed, depart in peace.”

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I really don’t see any benefit to it at all to be honest.

The benefit is to the unburdened soul that receives grace via the prayer of absolution prayed by the priest. One does not have to be physically present to be spiritually present. There are mysteries here that cataphatic theology cannot define and the Eastern apophatic theology comes into play.

I myself as an Orthodox Christian have done phone confessions and received Absolution via the phone. Distance is nothing to prayer. It is God who hears the confession, the priest is merely a witness, and is one who pronounces the prayer of absolution. The Holy Spirit is not somehow stopped from cleansing a penitent soul from sin because of distance, He is God, incidentally…

Now is this the best practice? No. There is always a special Incarnational aspect to Confessing in person, which is the normative practice in the Orthodox Church, but in many circumstances, especially with the Wuhan-Virus etc, this is a dispensation that allows people to unburden their souls and receive, truly, absolution for the forgiveness of sins.

The legalism of the Latin West and her cataphatic theology lose on this particular point, for the Greek East knows experientially in her apophatic way that this one Mystery of the Church can be celebrated with efficacy from a distance.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Is it just confession of one’s sins, or is absolution part of it as well? If the latter, how would the priest do that? Face the direction of where the penitent is (sort of like Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca) and pronounce words of absolution while making the sign of the cross in midair? Seriously — I am not trying to be “cute” or “clever”, I am trying to imagine the way absolution would be conferred after having received a letter, with the penitent present neither in actual fact nor by a virtual live electronic medium.

I don’t have the book in front of me (it’s checked out of the church library) but Abbot Nikon said something like he “absolved the penitent just as he would in regular confession” - which I assume means that he said the prayer of Absolution:

“May God Who, through Nathan the Prophet forgave David when confessed his sins; Peter when he wept
bitterly for his denial; the harlot who shed tears upon His feet; the Publican as well as the Prodigal: may this same God forgive you [Name], through me a sinner, everything both in this age and in the age to come; and may He make you stand uncondemned before His dread judgment seat. Having no further care for the sins you have confessed, depart in peace.”

That is very interesting to know. It carries the hypothetical situation far beyond whether someone is on the other end of an audio-video connection at that very moment, whether they are inside a church where, for some good reason, general absolution is being conferred, whether they are in a carpool lane confessing to a nearby priest over the phone, and so on.

Again, the first word that comes to mind is economia.

 

[AlNg]

Canon law makes mention of the “church or oratory” being the proper place for confessions to be heard

So in the military, a priest cannot hear a confession on the battlefield? It has to be in the church or oratory?

physical proximity is deemed part of the substance of the sacrament that has come from God

What distance would constitute physical proximity and reading john 20 I don’t see where Jesus required this.

there are questions regarding whether a priest can validly bestow blessing and/or absolution over vast distances.

john 20: 23 does not mention this.

And a priest in a lawn chair on the churchyard and a penitent in their car in the pickup lane, using a dedicated telephone line, isn’t? You didn’t say this, but some might. Doesn’t make sense.

The sacrament of penance requires no physical contact.

I myself as an Orthodox Christian have done phone confessions and received Absolution via the phone. Distance is nothing to prayer. It is God who hears the confession, the priest is merely a witness, and is one who pronounces the prayer of absolution. The Holy Spirit is not somehow stopped from cleansing a penitent soul from sin because of distance, He is God, incidentally…

Now is this the best practice? No. There is always a special Incarnational aspect to Confessing in person, which is the normative practice in the Orthodox Church, but in many circumstances, especially with the Wuhan-Virus etc, this is a dispensation that allows people to unburden their souls and receive, truly, absolution for the forgiveness of sins.

The legalism of the Latin West and her cataphatic theology lose on this particular point, for the Greek East knows experientially in her apophatic way that this one Mystery of the Church can be celebrated with efficacy from a distance.

Exactly. i don’t see where Roman Catholics here have the authority to say that your confessions were invalid. We are in an emergency situation of covid-19 quarantine and for that reason it only seems right that adjustments can be made for the salvation of souls.

 

[Thom18]

Thom18:

Canon law makes mention of the “church or oratory” being the proper place for confessions to be heard

So in the military, a priest cannot hear a confession on the battlefield? It has to be in the church or oratory?

Again, you are taking your argument beyond what it originally was. This is not relevant to your question, as a priest and penitent in a battlefield would still be physically present with each other.

 

[AlNg]

Again, you are taking your argument beyond what it originally was.

This is your statement:

Canon law makes mention of the “church or oratory” being the proper place for confessions to be heard (Can. 964 §1),

Confessions not heard in the church or oratory can still be valid. So there are exceptions to the general rule that the church or oratory is the proper place for confessions.

 

[dochawk]

In addition, telephone lines have a high probability of a third party hearing some of the conversation even if they are not actively wiretapping or trying to eavesdrop.

in fairness, so does a hard of hearing person with excessive volume in a confessional.

Can you just imagine if, say, Joe Biden went to confession using the phone and some undercover blogger type were to find a way to listen in on it?

I’m sorry, but this idea has me giggling. Not politically, but because It just opens new frontiers for gaffes, exceeding the classic confession in A Canticle for Leibowitz [1]. Not even any particular gaffe, even, but in general. In fairness, though, he wouldn’t match Quayl, but he’s not Catholic.

[1] After hard Lenten fasting, in which he has been hungrily eyeing the lizards, he confesses, “Forgive me, father, I ate a lizard.”

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Thom18:

Canon law makes mention of the “church or oratory” being the proper place for confessions to be heard

So in the military, a priest cannot hear a confession on the battlefield? It has to be in the church or oratory?

Proper place. Not “only” place. Of course a priest can hear a confession anywhere. It is not unknown for priests to hear confessions in airports. If someone needs to go to confession, there is no place that would be off limits.

Exactly. i don’t see where Roman Catholics here have the authority to say that your confessions were invalid. We are in an emergency situation of covid-19 quarantine and for that reason it only seems right that adjustments can be made for the salvation of souls.

I tend to agree, but I would ultimately submit to the judgment of the Church.

If I were a priest, and if the only way a penitent in extremis (whether death or something similarly distressing and urgent, whatever that might be) could confess, were by Skype, Facetime, or even telephone, I think I would just go ahead and do it, hope for the best, reason that the worst thing that could happen is that it would be invalid, and assume that the Orthodox just might know what they are talking about. As @Fuerza notes, the sacrament of matrimony can be conferred at a distance — why not, then, penance?

As for potential loss of confidentiality (not likely), I covered that above with the scenario of some priests and/or penitents being “loud talkers”. It does happen.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

As for potential loss of confidentiality (not likely), I covered that above with the scenario of some priests and/or penitents being “loud talkers”. It does happen.

The Orthodox also do not have a concept of “seal of Confession” like the Roman Catholic Church has. Of course, a priest should not go blabbing a parishioner’s sins around, and any priest worth his salt wouldn’t do that, as it would be gossip, injurious to his own soul and the soul of the parishioner. But, a priest may ask a parishioner’s blessing to share their particular struggle with someone else say, in the parish, or with the Bishop, or the elder of a monastery, who may have more experience in dealing with some besetting sin, or troubling circumstance, than the priest has.

Also, most Orthodox I know who confess via telephone eagerly await the unburdening of their souls with their confessor, and don’t even think twice about it being via the telephone, let alone worry about someone wire-tapping them. Some Orthodox receive the absolution via phone, while others are instructed after confessing to go see their parish priest for absolution.

 

[phil19034]

As @Fuerza notes, the sacrament of matrimony can be conferred at a distance — why not, then, penance?

Confessing one’s sins over Skype has spirtual benifit for sure. It is better than not doing anything.

However, the question is whether the priest can grant blessings on people & places he cannot (in person). The absolution is similar in a way to a blessing.

This is similar to priests giving their blessing on the radio to everyone listening. While priests will do it, there is a theological question regarding whether his priestly blessing is actually working, or if he is simply invoking the same kind of blessing a lay person would do.

So it as to do with the absolution. Does absolution work over remote distances or not? Because the Church doesn’t know for sure, they will not declare it to be valid. So it’s safer to consider them the same as the Act of Contrition.

They are helpful in an emergency, but we have no idea if they impart the Sacramental Graces.

I pray this makes sense.

BTW: in regards to the Orthodox, it will be interesting to see if the rest of them will agree with the Russians or not. Also, since the Orthodox are less concerned with certainty & scholasticism, I think they are more willing to take this leap than Catholics. Also, I think the Russian Orthodox will consider this to remain the exception and not the norm. But Catholics have a tendency to make exceptions the norm. For Catholics, if it’s legal, it’s an option period.

God Bless

 

[jeannetherese]

As @Fuerza notes, the sacrament of matrimony can be conferred at a distance — why not, then, penance?

In the sacrament of matrimony, the husband and wife confer the sacrament and the priest or deacon serves as witness. I wonder if this might be a factor?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

As @Fuerza notes, the sacrament of matrimony can be conferred at a distance — why not, then, penance?

In the sacrament of matrimony, the husband and wife confer the sacrament and the priest or deacon serves as witness. I wonder if this might be a factor?

Could be, but if the husband and wife are at a distance from each other, the same principle applies.

So it as to do with the absolution. Does absolution work over remote distances or not? Because the Church doesn’t know for sure, they will not declare it to be valid.

I am no sacramental theologian, but I would have to come down on the side of “probably valid”. However, “probably” where sacraments are concerned, is not someplace we want to be. That said, if I lay dying, and if the only priest available, were one of these schismatic priests with really dodgy orders — Duarte Costa, the more remote Thuc lineages, noncanonical Orthodox orders, and so on — I would certainly want to try and receive the last sacraments from him, rather than not receive them at all. I have to think Our Blessed Lord would want me to do that, and would not hold it against me, if I had in fact received invalid sacraments.

 

[jeannetherese]

I wonder if @Fuerza was referring to the priest being apart during matrimony, rather than the two potential spouses?

 

[babochka]

My quick thoughts on this…

These are simply remarks by Metropolitan Hilarion. They are in translation, they are brief, they do not appear to be official, and they are out of context. The purpose of what he said appears to be to give comfort to those who do not have recourse to their usual ways of prayer and connection with God. Other Orthodox bishops have given approval to confession by phone, but specified that absolution would have to be given in -person, at a later time. Honestly, there really isn’t enough here to really know what he means and how this might be carried out. I assume if he is actually making a change in practice, an official letter has been or will be issued to the clergy with instructions.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

To consecrate priests, you have to have a tactile laying on of hands.

Fair enough. Does not apply to Eucharist though.

And a priest in a lawn chair on the churchyard and a penitent in their car in the pickup lane, using a dedicated telephone line, isn’t?

If they are in close proximity and phone serves to help aid hearing and not to make physical proximity unnecessary… sure. Otherwise it does not apply. Bishops have ruled on this over and over.

True, but the situation of the Orthodox is a bit different. They have maintained apostolic succession, valid sacraments, and virtually the entire totality of the Catholic Faith.

What I am saying is that many communities did until they didn’t. Church of Sweden had all of the above until they changed direction. I am not saying Orthodoxy is doing so but I am saying it is theoretically possible for them to do so… in other words we can’t justify something by saying that Orthodox do it now.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Other Orthodox bishops have given approval to confession by phone, but specified that absolution would have to be given in -person, at a later time.

If that is the case then it is very similar to the blanket absolution that can be granted to Catholics in extreme situation. That completely changes nature of this debate.

 

[ReaderT]

HomeschoolDad:

To consecrate priests, you have to have a tactile laying on of hands.

Fair enough. Does not apply to Eucharist though.

Ah - in the Orthodox Church it would. The Eucharist has to be carefully prepared. There is actually a ~20 minute service called “Proskomedie” in the Altar before Liturgy begins, where the Priest and Deacon painstakingly prepare it.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Ah - in the Orthodox Church it would. The Eucharist has to be carefully prepared. There is actually a ~20 minute service called “Proskomedie” in the Altar before Liturgy begins, where the Priest and Deacon painstakingly prepare it.

That is for matter of being licit and such… but I imagine that if Priest found himself in any grave situation his authority as ordained Priest would allow him to consecrate bread without serving entire Divine Liturgy or without preparing it for 20 minutes. Eucharist can be valid and illicit at the same time. With regards to Confession it might work quite differently considering illicit Confession would invalidate it’s effect at least in some cases (but I am not sure about this one).

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

True, but the situation of the Orthodox is a bit different. They have maintained apostolic succession, valid sacraments, and virtually the entire totality of the Catholic Faith.

What I am saying is that many communities did until they didn’t. Church of Sweden had all of the above until they changed direction. I am not saying Orthodoxy is doing so but I am saying it is theoretically possible for them to do so… in other words we can’t justify something by saying that Orthodox do it now.

I would be interested to know when, exactly, the Church of Sweden was anything other than a schismatic Lutheran church.

The Catholic Church teaches that Orthodox communions are true Churches (capital C), and it is just a historical fact that they have existed (most of them, anyway) from the very beginning of their respective nations’ conversions to Christianity. The Holy Spirit works through them, too.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I would be interested to know when, exactly, the Church of Sweden was anything other than a schismatic Lutheran church.

Before Reformation.

The Catholic Church teaches that Orthodox communions are true Churches (capital C), and it is just a historical fact that they have existed (most of them, anyway) from the very beginning of their respective nations’ conversions to Christianity. The Holy Spirit works through them, too.

Yes, I am aware. Holy Spirit works through Protestants as well though. He works through all Christians and even Non-Christians but in different way. Orthodox Communion has valid Sacraments and they hold Apostolic Faith. I am simply acknowledging there is a possibility of that changing hence automatically accepting something because Orthodox do accept it is not correct approach. For example, we don’t accept contraception at all yet Orthodox do so- and that does not change our approach.