Russian Orthodox Patriarch refuses to recognise Catholic diocese in Russia

[XtusVictor]

Despite the fact that the Orthodox have various jurisdictions throughout the West, it refuses to acknowlege the Catholic presence in Russia and their legitimate need for pastoral provision.

The Russian Orthodox Church would never recognize the current status of Catholic dioceses in Russia, the head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Metropolitan Kirill of Smolenk and Kaliningrad stated.

‘We shall never recognize them and will always dispute the presence of ordinary Catholic dioceses in the territory of Russia and consider it a challenge to our common idea of sticking to a territorial principle of Church administration’, the hierarch said at a church and scientific conference in Moscow.

The Vatican decided to increase the status of its apostolic administrations in Russia up to the level of dioceses in 2002 thus causing a protest of the Russian Orthodox Church.

‘We consider it a mistake, which indeed damages the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue and puts off a possibility of achieving our common aims’, Metropolitan Kirill stated commenting on the 2002 events.

He said that arguments of the Moscow Patriarchate’s opponents were unjustified as they alleged that the Russian Orthodox Church in Europe had its dioceses set up on the same principle as the Catholic dioceses in Russia.

‘Dioceses of the Moscow Patriarchate in diaspora are not ordinary. Neither are they connected with local jurisdiction. They were established to provide pastoral care for people in diaspora, they do not have strictly defined boarders. In a certain sense, they are unusual dioceses and we always underline it in our dialogue with the Catholics’, the representative of the Russian Church noted.

Link here.

 

[XtusVictor]

Meanwhile, the Orthodox have established their own Bishop of Rome. This double standard reveals the nature of Orthodoxy. Duplicity.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Meanwhile, the Orthodox have established their own Bishop of Rome. This double standard reveals the nature of Orthodoxy. Duplicity.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, except of course if the Orthodox do it!

We shall wait till the chickens come home to roost on this one, Patriarch Alexy.

We see the same thing with the Western Rite Orthodox yet they call us proseletyzing w/ the Eastern & Oriental Churches, who freely came into full communion with us?!?!?! HUGE DOUBLE STANDARDS.

 

[Thomas_a_Sinner]

With the price of gas at an all time high Russia will become rich and the Uniats will not be able to be bought off. This will become a non issue.
Thomas a Sinner

 

[XtusVictor]

With the price of gas at an all time high Russia will become rich and the Uniats will not be able to be bought off. This will become a non issue.
Thomas a Sinner

Please do not use the term Uniate. It is offensive.

And the Eastern Catholics have suffered very long for being in union with Rome, they are not going to be easily bought off. Their continued oppression by the Orthodox certainly wont make them more attracted to Orthodoxy.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Meanwhile, the Orthodox have established their own Bishop of Rome.

I hadn’t heard this. When did this happen, and what is the Bishop’s name?

 

[valient_Lucy]

While I don’t know the story, I’m not sure I fully understand the Orthodox Bishop’s objection, especially if there is a sizable Catholic population in Russia (though I have no idea if there is or not.) Considering that the Orthodox Church will not give communion to Catholics, surely they recognize the need for Catholics to attend their own churches, and to have a bishop in the area if the area is larger. I’m fairly certain that, if the shoe was on the other foot, the Russian Orthodox Church would attempt to establish a diocese in a Catholic country, if there was a larger group of Orthodox Christians. I cannot imagine that they would ask the Orthodox Christians to attend Catholic parishes.

But then again, I don’t know the full particulars of the situation. Perhaps they feel that the presence of the Catholic diocese is an act of “sheep stealing.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Meanwhile, the Orthodox have established their own Bishop of Rome. This double standard reveals the nature of Orthodoxy. Duplicity.

Oh, what is his name?

I don’t recall hearing it in the diptychs.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Oh, what is his name?

I don’t recall hearing it in the diptychs.

What are the diptychs?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

What are the diptychs?

It’s the list of the bishops that your bishop (in reality, your primate) sees as Orthodox and communion. In practice, they just mention the primates of the autocephalous Churches (some are more complete). They are read as a sign of the unity of the Church.

 

[iamrefreshed]

How sad. And we call ourselves brothers.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Perhaps this is similar to the way Catholics feel about Protestants doing missional work in areas where Catholics are the dominant faith.

 

[Leopard]

Please do not use the term Uniate. It is offensive…

I don’t think this is universally true. I know many members of Eastern Churches in union with Rome who refer to themselves and their Churches as Uniate. They consider it a simple, accurate term.

This is not to say that other Eastern Catholics may not object to the term, just as some Latin Catholics find the abbreviation RCC for their church to be disrespectful, and if this is known of certain persons their preferences ought to be respected when speaking with them.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Perhaps this is similar to the way Catholics feel about Protestants doing missional work in areas where Catholics are the dominant faith.

I wonder if that is part of it, if they feel that it is an act of “sheep stealing.”

 

[RomanCrusader]

Wasn’t it also the Russian Orthodox who aided the communists in butchering helpless Catholics?

 

[Ridgerunner]

With the price of gas at an all time high Russia will become rich and the Uniats will not be able to be bought off. This will become a non issue.
Thomas a Sinner

I recently heard that Russia has more billionaires now than any other country on earth.

But it is also true that the wealth in Russia is very poorly distributed and the economy is very uneven in other ways. When is the last time you saw a Russian industrial product at WalMart? Even “Stolychnaya” doesn’t even come close to the quality of “Absolut”. Were it not for petroleum, Russia would be one of the poorest countries on earth. The population is imploding.

While it isn’t well publicized (and “Time” made Putin the “Man of the Year”-incredibly) Russia does seem to be descending into an ever-tighter oligarchic state, with a secret police that is a worthy descendant of the KGB, and a favored kleptocracy that, to defy or rival, courts arrest or death.

The ROC seems both fortunate and unfortunate in that it appears to be favored by the state. That favor will ensure resources and protection. But it seems likely to me that the masters of the country will also likely attempt to impose its will on the ROC in ways that may be subtle, but may not be so. One questions whether the Patriarch will, in times to come, feel himself able, as a religious leader, to address the secular injustices that are rampant, and possibly worsening.

I could be wrong, and those who wish to be blind to what is going on in Russia will, of course, say I am. But I think the ROC is in for some tough days ahead, though on the surface they will seem like good days. I think Catholics in Russia are in for a very bad time, as the ROC does not feel the Catholic Church has any place in Russia at all (despite former Soviet kidnapping and exile of innumerable Catholic citizens of the former Soviet Empire)
In this, the Russian state will be (and already is) supportive. But one must question the cost of that support. Caesar always exacts a price. Historically, that price in Russia has always been terrible.

 

[XtusVictor]

I recently heard that Russia has more billionaires now than any other country on earth.

But it is also true that the wealth in Russia is very poorly distributed and the economy is very uneven in other ways. When is the last time you saw a Russian industrial product at WalMart? Even “Stolychnaya” doesn’t even come close to the quality of “Absolut”. Were it not for petroleum, Russia would be one of the poorest countries on earth. The population is imploding.

While it isn’t well publicized (and “Time” made Putin the “Man of the Year”-incredibly) Russia does seem to be descending into an ever-tighter oligarchic state, with a secret police that is a worthy descendant of the KGB, and a favored kleptocracy that, to defy or rival, courts arrest or death.

The ROC seems both fortunate and unfortunate in that it appears to be favored by the state. That favor will ensure resources and protection. But it seems likely to me that the masters of the country will also likely attempt to impose its will on the ROC in ways that may be subtle, but may not be so. One questions whether the Patriarch will, in times to come, feel himself able, as a religious leader, to address the secular injustices that are rampant, and possibly worsening.

I could be wrong, and those who wish to be blind to what is going on in Russia will, of course, say I am. But I think the ROC is in for some tough days ahead, though on the surface they will seem like good days. I think Catholics in Russia are in for a very bad time, as the ROC does not feel the Catholic Church has any place in Russia at all (despite former Soviet kidnapping and exile of innumerable Catholic citizens of the former Soviet Empire)
In this, the Russian state will be (and already is) supportive. But one must question the cost of that support. Caesar always exacts a price. Historically, that price in Russia has always been terrible.

And so, we must still pray for the conversion of Russia.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Oh, what is his name?

I don’t recall hearing it in the diptychs.

Ah, I see I’m not the only one who hasn’t heard of this guy…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Despite the fact that the Orthodox have various jurisdictions throughout the West, it refuses to acknowlege the Catholic presence in Russia and their legitimate need for pastoral provision.

The Russian Orthodox Church would never recognize the current status of Catholic dioceses in Russia, the head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Metropolitan Kirill of Smolenk and Kaliningrad stated.

‘We shall never recognize them and will always dispute the presence of ordinary Catholic dioceses in the territory of Russia and consider it a challenge to our common idea of sticking to a territorial principle of Church administration’, the hierarch said at a church and scientific conference in Moscow.

The Vatican decided to increase the status of its apostolic administrations in Russia up to the level of dioceses in 2002 thus causing a protest of the Russian Orthodox Church.

‘We consider it a mistake, which indeed damages the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue and puts off a possibility of achieving our common aims’, Metropolitan Kirill stated commenting on the 2002 events.

He said that arguments of the Moscow Patriarchate’s opponents were unjustified as they alleged that the Russian Orthodox Church in Europe had its dioceses set up on the same principle as the Catholic dioceses in Russia.

‘Dioceses of the Moscow Patriarchate in diaspora are not ordinary. Neither are they connected with local jurisdiction. They were established to provide pastoral care for people in diaspora, they do not have strictly defined boarders. In a certain sense, they are unusual dioceses and we always underline it in our dialogue with the Catholics’, the representative of the Russian Church noted.

Link here.

This is stupid for the Moscow Patriarchate to not recognized them. The Russian Catholics have always been there for crying out loud. They been for a long time even long before the East West Schism.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Despite the fact that the Orthodox have various jurisdictions throughout the West, it refuses to acknowlege the Catholic presence in Russia and their legitimate need for pastoral provision.

The Russian Orthodox Church would never recognize the current status of Catholic dioceses in Russia, the head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Metropolitan Kirill of Smolenk and Kaliningrad stated.

‘We shall never recognize them and will always dispute the presence of ordinary Catholic dioceses in the territory of Russia and consider it a challenge to our common idea of sticking to a territorial principle of Church administration’, the hierarch said at a church and scientific conference in Moscow.

The Vatican decided to increase the status of its apostolic administrations in Russia up to the level of dioceses in 2002 thus causing a protest of the Russian Orthodox Church.

‘We consider it a mistake, which indeed damages the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue and puts off a possibility of achieving our common aims’, Metropolitan Kirill stated commenting on the 2002 events.

He said that arguments of the Moscow Patriarchate’s opponents were unjustified as they alleged that the Russian Orthodox Church in Europe had its dioceses set up on the same principle as the Catholic dioceses in Russia.

‘Dioceses of the Moscow Patriarchate in diaspora are not ordinary. Neither are they connected with local jurisdiction. They were established to provide pastoral care for people in diaspora, they do not have strictly defined boarders. In a certain sense, they are unusual dioceses and we always underline it in our dialogue with the Catholics’, the representative of the Russian Church noted.

Link here.

I think it pretty well goes without saying that the ROP is not going to recognise any of the Latin (or other Papal) jurisdictions. ​

There is nothing to be done about it - granted, that’s easy for an individual to say.

I don’t think the CC should let itself be hindered by this - the good of Christians matters a great deal more than the niceties of canon law, & takes precedence over them. If Church diplomacy hinders the preaching of Christ or the gift of His sacraments, it has no authority. The Apostles did not ask Nero or the other Emperors for permission to preach Christ Crucified - neither should Christians today; the preaching of the Gospel cannot be made dependent on the will of men: that would be a way of subordinating the command of Christ to the will of those who care nothing for Him.

IOW - the man has no authority to forbid the CC to make provision for the pastoral well-being of Christians.