Russian Patriarch sets criteria for Pope

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

.

Putin has invited the Pope true but everytime its about to Happen the Orthodox start crying and talks cease it happens all the time.
Everything that I have ever read contradicts your other statements.
As you read everything with a bias it is no wonder you deny the interference of the RO in having the Pope visist Russia your Patriarch has not been cooperative in any way to help thie monumental day to come to fruition

If the Pope wishes to visit Russia, nothing will stop him.

It is he who imposes the condition that he must get an invitation form the Russian Patriarch.

That demand is wearing thin… let me go and be done with it.

Why does he go on denying his faithful the benefit of a visit?

After all, he has already been in the territory of the Russian Patriarch when he visited the Ukraine. And he did that without a patriarchal invite.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

You claim I am being dishonest that the RP is being unchristian because you perceive that the Pope is not going to Russia on his own self-imposed initiative.

If this is so, why is the RP imposing any conditions on the Pope’s visit to Russia?

Further, one of the oldest ecclesiastical canons states that a bishop cannot go into the territory of another without invitation or approval. The Pope wishes to respect the canons of the universal Church, and you criticize him for it? As in other threads, the Orthodox seem to be running back and forth trying to put the Pope in a bad light even if their very reasoning is contradictory.

BTW, as far as most are concerned, the Ukraine is NOT in the jurisdiction of Moscow (though some RO might object).

God bless,

Greg

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Fr Ambrose:

This is not true. Nobody, and certainly not the Russian Patriarch, is preventing the Pope visiting his people in Russia.

Putin has issued many invitations to the Pope.

It is the Pope who, somewhat petulantly, refuses to visit his people. For his own reasons the Pope refuses to go to Russia unless the Patriarch approves his visit.

Absolutely nothing prevents the Pope visiting Russia and visiting his people, except his own strange self-imposed pre-conditions. He could get on the papal jet and be in Moscow tomorrow if he chose.

Dear Father: With respect, I think the last thing anyone can accuse Pope John Paul II of is being petulant. You could say that of some popes, but not this one.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

BTW, as far as most are concerned, the Ukraine is NOT in the jurisdiction of Moscow (though some RO might object.)

As far as those who matter the Ukraine is very definitely within the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. By “those who matter” I mean every single Orthodox Church in the world (including Constantinople) which are all in communion with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate and not with either of the two schismatic “Churches.” That speaks volumes.

May we know whom you mean by “most”?

 

[GAssisi]

By “most” I mean the ones who live in the Ukraine. This is an issue of jurisdiction (and Christian charity), pure and simply. I do not understand why you would not understand what I mean by “most.”

 

[Orthodoc]

GAssisi writes:

[Do you want the Pope to act like a dictator or do you NOT want the Pope to act like a dictator? If the positions were reversed, would you expect Rome to interfere?]
The UGCC is a sui juris church under the authority of the Pope, and as such, is required to abide by the canons of the ‘Code of Canons of the Eastern Church’ which clearly states that the Pope has the final say in any decision that has to be made. So much so, that any person who accepts his authority cannot even transfer from one sui juris church to another without either his knowledge or approval -

Canon 32: No one can validly transfer from one sui juris church to another without te consent of the Apostolic See.

The UGCC can’t even proclaim a Patriarchate or beatify a saint without the permission and consent of the Pope. So all the Pope had to do was honor the agreement he, as well as his sui juris church agreed to. By speaking out against it he had the authority to nip it in the bud.

Had the situation been in reverse, the Pope would have appealed to the Moscow Patriarch to speak out against it since the UOC-MP is an automonous church within the Moscow Patriarchate which is similiar to what you call sui juris in the RCC.

[Back up a bit. First of all, here we have Father A proposing that we should accept the RP’s unchristian attitudes based on the fact that Catholics are not suppose to proselytize Orthodox according to Catholic belief. ]

Then -
[Forgive me for contending with you, but even if an Orthodox comes to realize the truth of unity with the Holy Father, their Sacraments are still “sufficient” as vehicles of grace. If it were not so, we would not be able to receive Orthodox Sacraments in extremis]

If the RCC and the Pope are sincere in their claims that the Orthodox Church has valid Sacraments, can provide salvation within its fold, and is a sister church (which you even substiantate in your above comments) then -
There is no longer a valid reason for the RCC to proselyze amongst the Orthodox.

[By “most” I mean the ones who live in the Ukraine. ]

The UOC-MP is still the largest Christian Church in Ukraine. It still has the largest amount of churches, the most amount of seminarians , Sunday schools than any other church.

---

Maccabees writes:

[The Orthodox fail to realize that we had churches their prior to Stalin and just want reestablish what we once had we don’t want to turn the RO into Latins.]

If you just wanted to reestablish what you had then why are you building new churches for congregations consisting of some 300 elderly members that can hold 3000?]

[Besides most of the country is not practicing any religion of anykind it is better for those who don’t connect to the RO to be Latin than nothing at all. ]

The Russian Orthodox Church is rebuilding itself by leaps and bounds within Russia. Compare this to what is happening to the RCC in Europe & America.

russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/today_en.htm

At present The Russian Orthodox Church has 128 dioceses in various regions of Russia. It currently has 128 dioceses ( there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). The pastoral service is carried out by 150 bishops, 17500 priests and 2300 deacons. The network of educational Orthodox institutions is directed by the Education Committee. At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26 seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological Institute, a women’s pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total number of theological students including those of the correspondence departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been established to develop religious education among the laity. There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens, Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools, lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been the most popular form of catechism.

Orthodoc

 

[Maccabees]

Lets see since the RO is in bed with the Russian government it expels all unwanted relgiions you have no choice but tho worship in the RO or be an athiest.
The Catholic Church worldwide outgrows the RO everyyear we actually go outside our borders and evangelize.
You guys count on immigration and Ro’s coming back from the church for church growth.
Besides the only persons who know what the heck the Russian Church is and who leads the church are Russian Orthodox nobbody else care or knows for a good reason he’s insignficant outside out of the RO all religions and secular authorities recognize the Bishop of Rome as important whether they accept him or not.
THe Russian Patriarch who the heck cares?

 

[Orthodoc]

[What is in it for them to belong to the church he heads? I take it that they must be mostly Ukrainians who, like the Ukrainian Catholics also, want their own patriarch for reasons of nationalism, while the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate would be mostly composed of ethnic Russians. How long ago did the schism between the UOC-KP and the UOC-MP occur?]

Then why are they closing so many churches, convents, & seminaries both in Western Europe and America. I could give some current statistics of the state of the RCC here in America since Vatican II from a post here before it was deleted and the poster suspended. But then I’d probably be suspended too.

Orthodoc

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Orthodoc,

First of all, Canon 32 is meant as a protection for Eastern Catholic Churches. It is intended to limit transfers of Eastern Catholics to the Latin Church. So how papal solicitude for the Eastern Churches supports your contention (which at the base is your attempt to malign the Pope as someone who does not respect the Eastern Churches) is beyond all bounds of reason. To be honest, I do not have a copy of the Eastern Code of Canon Law. The Canon sounds similar to the canon of the undivided church that stated bishops or priests cannot transfer to other jurisdictions without proper procedure/ authority. If it relates to that, Orthodoc, your point is even lower in the rung of reason than I thought.

Secondly, as I mentioned to Father, you have yet to prove that the Catholic Church is proselytizing.

Third, it does not matter that the RO affiliated Ukrainian Church is the largest Church. It is still a matter of fact that MOST in this region do not recognize the ROC’s jurisdiction. In any case, Sts. Methodius and Cyril who evangelized the region obtained their episcopal orders from ROME, not from Constantinople (much less Russia). If any Church outside the Church of the Ukraine can be said to have any say in the affairs of the Ukrainian Church, it would be Rome, not Moscow. The ROC insinuated itself into the region only by riding on the coattails of secular Russia. Originally, the region was ecclesiastically connected to Rome.

Dear Maccabees,

The Russian Patriarch who the heck cares?

I would like to agree, but I can’t, because the Holy Father cares. Otherwise, he would not be walking on eggshells about the Ukrainian issue. The Russian Orthodox Church, despite its pretensions, is still the largest Orthodox body in Orthodoxy.

God bless all,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

Third, it does not matter that the RO affiliated Ukrainian Church is the largest Church. It is still a matter of fact that MOST in this region do not recognize the ROC’s jurisdiction.

About seventy-six percent of the population of the Ukraine are Orthodox, spread between the one canonical Church and the two non-canonical Churches.

The Orthodox in the Ukraine represent some 39,596,000 people. The membership of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church amounts to 70% of this. There are 27, 717,000 members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church associated with Moscow.

These 27 million people, the great majority of the Orthodox in the Ukraine, choose of their own volition to go these churches which are in communion with Moscow. They are not being marched into the churches on Sundays at gunpoint?

I don’t understand why you are repeating, wrongly, that “MOST in this region do not recognize the ROC’s jurisdiction.” Most DO.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

According to a July, 2004 census, Orthodox Christians claiming association with the Moscow Patriarchate only number 26% of the population. THAT is why I stated that MOST in this region do not recognize the jurisdiction of the ROC. According to your statistics, they would number 53% of the population. Why the discrepancy? Are you combining the MP and the KP? Father, it was obvious I was referring to the MP, because I was responding to Orthodoc’s post who sought to refute me by stating that the MP is the largest Christian group in the country. Why are you always evading the actual content and intent of my posts, Father? Are you trying to be smart? It happens a lot of times, but if you really are merely trying to be smart, you should use laughing smileys to indicate that you are not being serious, so other readers may not be unintentionally deceived by your humor.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

According to a July, 2004 census

Reference please.

Orthodox Christians claiming association with the Moscow Patriarchate only number 26% of the population.

I was not addressing their membership as a percentage of the entire population, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Communists and atheists which you will appreciate has no relevance in this matter under discussion, but as a percentage of the Orthodox population which is the relevant factor.

Here is something the Catholic source, CNEWA:

cnewa.org/ecc-ukrainian-orth-patriar.htm

1. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate}

10,384 parishes

1. Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate

3,395 parishes.

1. Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church

1,156 parishes

---

Now there are 39,596,000 Orthodox Christians in the Ukraine.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriachate) has 70% of all the Orthodox parishes of the three groups combined. It is far and away the majority.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

that the MP is the largest Christian group in the country. Why are you always evading the actual content and intent of my posts, Father? Are you trying to be smart? It happens a lot of times, but if you really are merely trying to be smart, you should use laughing smileys to indicate that you are not being serious, so other readers may not be unintentionally deceived by your humor

Coming from anyone else I would see this as offensive and sniffy but in your case I know that you are seriously offering me your best advice.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

I would like to agree, but I can’t, because the Holy Father cares. Otherwise, he would not be walking on eggshells about the Ukrainian issue. The Russian Orthodox Church, despite its pretensions, is still the largest Orthodox body in Orthodoxy.

I realise that you must have serious reasons to speak of the Russian Church’s pretentions and that you must find them convincing, but the rest of us don’t see what pretensions you mean. Has the Russian Patriarch claimed infallibility or supreme jurisdiction over the Orthodox world?

Woudl you please help us understand your meaning?

 

[Maccabees]

GAssisi:

Dear Orthodoc,

First of all, Canon 32 is meant as a protection for Eastern Catholic Churches. It is intended to limit transfers of Eastern Catholics to the Latin Church. So how papal solicitude for the Eastern Churches supports your contention (which at the base is your attempt to malign the Pope as someone who does not respect the Eastern Churches) is beyond all bounds of reason. To be honest, I do not have a copy of the Eastern Code of Canon Law. The Canon sounds similar to the canon of the undivided church that stated bishops or priests cannot transfer to other jurisdictions without proper procedure/ authority. If it relates to that, Orthodoc, your point is even lower in the rung of reason than I thought.

Secondly, as I mentioned to Father, you have yet to prove that the Catholic Church is proselytizing.

Third, it does not matter that the RO affiliated Ukrainian Church is the largest Church. It is still a matter of fact that MOST in this region do not recognize the ROC’s jurisdiction. In any case, Sts. Methodius and Cyril who evangelized the region obtained their episcopal orders from ROME, not from Constantinople (much less Russia). If any Church outside the Church of the Ukraine can be said to have any say in the affairs of the Ukrainian Church, it would be Rome, not Moscow. The ROC insinuated itself into the region only by riding on the coattails of secular Russia. Originally, the region was ecclesiastically connected to Rome.

Dear Maccabees,

The Russian Patriarch who the heck cares?

I would like to agree, but I can’t, because the Holy Father cares. Otherwise, he would not be walking on eggshells about the Ukrainian issue. The Russian Orthodox Church, despite its pretensions, is still the largest Orthodox body in Orthodoxy.

God bless all,

Greg

Of course our Holy father had given his all in gestures, words and actions for reunification of the ORthodox while the Russian Church does everything it can to humiliate the man.
Many in the western church care my point is that for those outside of the religious scene between the RO and RCC who really cares. I see don’t see Time magazine and CNN really covering the Patriarchs hand slap of the pope. Nobody cares in that sense.

 

[GAssisi]

Here is my source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html#People

How can you say that Catholics do not have a say in determining the relevance of the Moscow Patriarchate? The episcopate of the first Christians in the Ukraine was connected the ROMAN Patriarchate, not to the Moscow Patriarchate that did not even yet exist. The Moscow Patriarchate (aside from the Alaskan missions) gained all its territories in Eastern Europe from the violent imperialism of Czarist and Communist Moscow. The Russian Orthodox have no right to claim that Ukrainian Catholics have no participation in the affairs of the Ukrainian Church. I have heard that the UOC-MP is kind of the odd-man out. All the other Christian Churches have much closer ties with each other than with the UOC-MP.

BTW, all together, even excluding non-Christian, non-hierarchical groups, the UOC-MP is still in the minority.

God bless,

GregP.S. I just realized you base much of your info on the number of parishes. Don’t mean a thing if there are 100 parishes of the UOC-MP with 100 people in each parish, while there are only 20 from all other hierarchical Churches. If each of those non-UOC-MP parishes each had 1000 members, the UOC-MP would still be in the minority.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

GAssisi:

BTW, all together, even excluding non-Christian, non-hierarchical groups, the UOC-MP is still in the minority

Strange. “Patriarch” Philaret of the major schismatic Church, the “Kyiv Patriarchate,” himself speaks of the much larger number of Moscow churches and Moscow adherents in the Ukraine.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

*

This is true. The very odd “Patriarch” Philaret was so overjoyed to get an invite to papal events when the Pope was in the Ukraine that he has even proposed entering into communion with Rome. Rome, wisely, has made no response to this outlandish suggestion. Of course he expects Rome to confirm him as Patriarch. In the meantime he is continuing his very odd church career, taking under his wing any uncanonical Church or defrocked clergyman around the world who ask to be part of his flock. The canonical UOC-MP and the other Orthodox Churches and Patriarchates can only watch in dismay and naturally keep him at arms length.*

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Maccabees:

Of course our Holy father had given his all in gestures, words and actions for reunification of the ORthodox while the Russian Church does everything it can to humiliate the man.
Many in the western church care my point is that for those outside of the religious scene between the RO and RCC who really cares. I see don’t see Time magazine and CNN really covering the Patriarchs hand slap of the pope. Nobody cares in that sense.

My question stands unanswered. Why doesn’t the Pope visit Russia? Why is he insisting on imposing his own pre-conditions on a visit? Demanding to have the blessing of the Patriarch. Why is he denying his flock the chance to see him? And then it is made to appear that the mean old Patriarch is stopping him. I imagine that he won’t even need a visa but he could get on the plane tomorrow. The Russians won’t stop him.

Please quit this disgraceful pretense that it is the Patriarch stopping the Pope visiting his people.

 

[GAssisi]

The pretensions of the Russian Orthodox Church-MP? Didn’t it claim to be the third Rome and attempt to suborn the rightful place of Constantinople? Hasn’t the Moscow Patriarchate had historic contentions with Constantinople because of this? Isn’t it the ROC-MP who is actively seeking to block the formation of a Ukranian Patriarchate? Sounds pretty pretentious to claim to direct the affairs of a Church that the ROC did not even found, who has links to that Church only by virtue of secular conquests. Blessing the efforts of a murdering communist dictator seems pretentious. Also rather pretentious to presume that Russia was evangelized by St. Andrew. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the anti-Catholic drivel from you and other Orthodox before about the pretensions of Rome. Whatever else may be the case, you cannot deny that the ROC-MP has its share of pretensions.

If this is going to start another anti-Catholic mudslinging match, rest assured I will not join in. I’m content with the fact that if another mudslinging match ensues, it will not be because there is a refutation of anything I’ve said, but because it will be the same old tactic of trying to bring up dirt about the Catholic Church. Remember – you asked.

God bless,

Greg

P.S. I will welcome it if the Moderators feel my post is improper and they erase it. In fact, if it does start another mudslinging match, I hope the Moderators DO erase it.