Russian Patriarch sets criteria for Pope

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Dear Father,

And you have yet to answer my question as to why the RP is imposing conditions on his visit. So stop making the RP look like an angel, while representing the Pope as someone neglecting his flock.

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
all together, even excluding non-Christian, non-hierarchical groups, the UOC-MP is still in the minority
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Here are the religious statistics from RISU - RISU is a project of the Institute of Religion and Society of the Ukrainian Catholic University

risu.org.ua/eng/resources/statistics/reg2001

You will note that apart from 3 cities in the Western Ukraine where the UOC-KP has more parishes, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate is the overwhelming majority through the whole country. In other words, people are voting with their feet - and supporting the canonical Church.
 
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GAssisi:
you have yet to answer my question as to why the RP is imposing conditions on his visit. So stop making the RP look like an angel, while representing the Pope as someone neglecting his flock.
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The Pope has turned it into a silly game. He has laid down the condition that the Patriarch must invite him. He says that the Patriarch is head of a sister Church and he has to respect the Patriarch and cannot enter his territory without an invite… this is strange since he showed no respect nor concern for the Patriarch’s wishes when Rome decided two years ago to create RC dioceses on the Patriarch’s territory.

So the Pope should stop playing this game about needing the Patriarch’s approval for anything and he should just get on with his pastoral duty to visit his flock in Russia. It is nothing to do with the Patriarch, is it?
 
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GAssisi:
The pretensions of the Russian Orthodox Church-MP? Didn’t it claim to be the third Rome and attempt to suborn the rightful place of Constantinople? Hasn’t the Moscow Patriarchate had historic contentions with Constantinople because of this? Isn’t it the ROC-MP who is actively seeking to block the formation of a Ukranian Patriarchate? Sounds pretty pretentious to claim to direct the affairs of a Church that the ROC did not even found, who has links to that Church only by virtue of secular conquests. Blessing the efforts of a murdering communist dictator seems pretentious. Also rather pretentious to presume that Russia was evangelized by St. Andrew. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the anti-Catholic drivel from you and other Orthodox before about the pretensions of Rome. Whatever else may be the case, you cannot deny that the ROC-MP has its share of pretensions.

If this is going to start another anti-Catholic mudslinging match, rest assured I will not join in. I’m content with the fact that if another mudslinging match ensues, it will not be because there is a refutation of anything I’ve said, but because it will be the same old tactic of trying to bring up dirt about the Catholic Church. Remember – you asked.

God bless,

Greg

P.S. I will welcome it if the Moderators feel my post is improper and they erase it. In fact, if it does start another mudslinging match, I hope the Moderators DO erase it.
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Dear Greg,

Thank you very much for your reply. If you want to erase your post you have 20 minutes to do that, and after the 20 minutes expires you can ask a moderator to do it for you.
 
Dear Father

Not barring actions like creating dioceses in another’s jurisdiction like the RP does, let’s all agree that the Pope does not need to respect the canons of the universal Church in this instance. How far are you willing to let the Pope go? What other canonical rules can he discard or disobey? What would you rather have – a temporary feeling of satisfaction that you were able to prove to yourself that the Pope is being inconsistent, or to have the Pope actually respect a canon of the universal Church?

God bless,

Greg

P.S. I said I’ll remove the post only if it starts an anti-Catholic mudslinging match. This would entail a sarcastic response from an Orthodox. If no one takes the bait, and it stops there, then I do not feel it needs to be removed. If a Catholic responds with something equally sarcastic, then it needs to be removed, as do the last two rounds of useless drivel.
 
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GAssisi:
Dear Father

Not barring actions like creating dioceses in another’s jurisdiction like the RP does, let’s all agree that the Pope does not need to respect the canons of the universal Church in this instance. How far are you willing to let the Pope go? What other canonical rules can he discard or disobey? What would you rather have – a temporary feeling of satisfaction that you were able to prove to yourself that the Pope is being inconsistent, or to have the Pope actually respect a canon of the universal Church?
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But the creation of the Roman Catholic Dioceses in Russia show that the Holy Father is following the rules as the Catholic Church has them.

I also might add that the Orthodox Churches have created Eparchies within the Western Church’s areas.

But back to my point, look at the names of the Dioceses, it honors the rule of only one Bishop per city.

Sort of like Parma, Ohio. The Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church has the Bishop of Parma for the Eparchy of Parma. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church also has a bishop there, but he is not the Bishop of Parma. His Eparchy is named the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Eparchy of St Josaphat in Parma.

So it is recognized that there is only one bishop per city.

I believe the dioceses created in Russia follow the same nameing conventions.
 
[Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the anti-Catholic drivel from you and other Orthodox before about the pretensions of Rome. Whatever else may be the case, you cannot deny that the ROC-MP has its share of pretensions.]

But nothing as pretensious as claiming Universal jurisdiction or being the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth!

Orthodoc
 
Orthodoc said:
[Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the anti-Catholic drivel from you and other Orthodox before about the pretensions of Rome. Whatever else may be the case, you cannot deny that the ROC-MP has its share of pretensions.]

But nothing as pretensious as claiming Universal jurisdiction or being the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth!

Orthodoc
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You can’t come to a Catholic forum and complain when we talk about Catholic Teachings.
 
[Dear Father,

And you have yet to answer my question as to why the RP is imposing conditions on his visit. So stop making the RP look like an angel, while representing the Pope as someone neglecting his flock. ]

Are you trying to suggest that every time the EP or any other Orthodox hierach vists Rome, the protocol and the agenda is not made up by the RCC and then approved by the OC before the visit takes place?

As has been already pointed out to you the Pope refuses to discuss the issue of the ‘Quadripartite Agreement’ he agreed to and then backed out on.

The Pope constantly plays to the western press. Every time in the past the Pope and MP where to meet and the agenda was agreed upon and the meeting was announced the Pope suddenly took this issue off the table. And the MP reacted by cancelling the meeting and came out looking bad in the western press who never bothers to investigate the issues.

There is no valid reason for the Pope to visit Russia unless the issues of contention between us are discussed openly and honestly. Otherwise it is nothing more than a big worldwide PR spectacle!

In this day and age with satallite TV there is no longer a need for the Pope to visit his tiny flock in Russia personally. He has already visited with them using this technical miracle when he meet his people in the new cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Moscow.

Orthodoc
 
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ByzCath:
You can’t come to a Catholic forum and complain when we talk about Catholic Teachings.
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Yes this is a Catholic (aka Roman Catholic) forum and we who are not Roman Catholic are guests here and must respect this, but it must also be remembered that the postings here come under the title of “Non_Catholic” groups ( although this title annoyes the living hell out me but I can live with it) and you should expect some polemic verse and that it may be the only section within this whole Catholic forum for which our arguments can be viewed. You have to admit it is but a tiny window into our world.

StMarkEofE
 
Dear Orthodoc,

Are you trying to suggest that every time the EP or any other Orthodox hierach vists Rome, the protocol and the agenda is not made up by the RCC and then approved by the OC before the visit takes place?

If you re-read the course of the discussion, I think you will discover we are on the same page on this issue. It is the canonical procedure (ancient and universal) that an hierarch must have permission to cross over into the jurisdiction of another hierarch. I am defending this canon law against Father A’s argument that the Pope can just go into Russia anytime he likes.

As has been already pointed out to you the Pope refuses to discuss the issue of the ‘Quadripartite Agreement’ he agreed to and then backed out on.

How did the Pope back out of the agreement? It seems to me you have to take up the issue with another sui juris Church, not Rome.

There is no valid reason for the Pope to visit Russia unless the issues of contention between us are discussed openly and honestly. Otherwise it is nothing more than a big worldwide PR spectacle!

Patriarchs visit their flock very often, Orthodoc. The presence of a spiritual leader is indeed a great grace, even a sacrament, to his flock. I doubt anyone here, even your fellow Orthodox, will agree with this contention.

But nothing as pretensious as claiming Universal jurisdiction or being the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth!

Something ordained by Christ cannot be pretentious. Do you recall Korah’s objection against Moses? Doesn’t your contention sound terribly similar to Korah’s? It would only be pretentious if he exercised the prerogatives of his station anytime he pleases, anywhere he pleases, and for whatever reason he pleases. But this is not the case. He is himself bound by Sacred Tradition, and the law of love. It is this which prevents him from visiting his flock within Russia, since he wants to obey the canons of the universal Church, and thus respect the RP.

God bless,

Greg
 
Dear StMarkE,

“Non_Catholic” groups ( although this title annoyes the living hell out me but I can live with it)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I begged and pleaded to the best of my ability for a separate section for Eastern concerns to be created, but the majority vote indicated that such a move would alienate the East from the West. So we gotta live with it.

God bless,

Greg
 
The troubles the Catholics and the Pope are having vis-a-vie the RP and RO are more about politics than Religion. Russia, under Putin and aided by the RP, is undergoing an enormous mobilization of Nationalist efforts. Jews are being encouraged (if not forced) to leave for Israeal and elsewhere, Baptists and Lutherans often have Churchs taken or vadalised (I personally know recent Protestant political refugees from Russia), and many Catholic priests are denied access to the Country and/or detained and sent out of Russia. This is the reality,- just look at many of the laws recently inacted to “combat terrorism”. “Russia for the Russians” is the cry, - and the Russians are Orthodox only (says Putin and the RP).
 
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cursillo255:
Jews are being encouraged (if not forced) to leave for Israeal and elsewhere
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I know about this first hand from our Jewish immigrants. Many Jews are returning to Russia, from Israel and the Westen countries, in part because they are taking up the business opportunities in post-soviet Russia.

The Russian Jewish immigration to Israel is interesting because some of these Jews are in fact Orthodox Christians who are of Jewish ancestry and have the right to immigrate to Israel (although the Israeli Government wants to shut this off.) The famous ‘refusniks’ in the Israeli Army contain many of these Orthodox Christians from Russia and it is through their Christian influence that more humanitarian attitudes occur now in the Army. There are so many of these Russian Orthodox Jewish Christians that the Patriarchate of Jerusalem has created a special office to ensure their spiritual needs are supplied and, because they use both Slavonic and Hebrew in their worship they are starting to have a missionary impact.
Baptists and Lutherans often have Churchs taken or vadalised (I personally know recent Protestant political refugees from Russia)
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This is happening all over the old Soviet Union. In places such as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan the Orthodox are being mistreated by the authorities. If you are interested, subscribe to “Forum 18” - a Norwegian group, very professionalwhich monitors these things…

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Fr Ambrose:
My question stands unanswered. Why doesn’t the Pope visit Russia? Why is he insisting on imposing his own pre-conditions on a visit? Demanding to have the blessing of the Patriarch. Why is he denying his flock the chance to see him? And then it is made to appear that the mean old Patriarch is stopping him. I imagine that he won’t even need a visa but he could get on the plane tomorrow. The Russians won’t stop him.

Please quit this disgraceful pretense that it is the Patriarch stopping the Pope visiting his people.
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Because the Pope is not stupid to fall your Patriarchs trick. So he shows up uninvited that would leave a wide opening for the RO to say what an arrogant act it is of the Pope to show up uninvited and that he is not welcome and he is trying to take over the East with Catholcism and he intends to consecrate Russia by means of the catholic church yada yada. Plus the entire country is basically Orthodx anyway there is not a significant catholic community in numbers that would counteract the hostility of this Orthodox community. The Pope wants to be viewed as an invited guest not an invader which the patriarch will surely paint him as if he defies his wisheds that he not step fet into the country.
Sorry if thought the Pope would fall for that he is not stupid he’s politcally savvy and this is what this has been reduced to Politics by The RO. THis is childful on the Part of the RO and your defense of this is pathetic as is attacks on not only the Pope bust Saints Kolbe and Pio. I have no respect for such lowball tactics.
 
Dear Maccabees,

This is not politics; it is about obedience to the canons of the universal church.

God Bless,
Greg
 
I disagree the original split was partly politcal and the Russian Patriariach within the context of religion is playing politics. I am not talking abourt secular politics my friend I am talking about church politcs. This is a very real thing and its going on right now bewteen Rome and the RO and on both sides.
 
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Maccabees:
pathetic as is attacks on not only the Pope bust Saints Kolbe and Pio. I have no respect for such lowball tactics.
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Will somebody please tell him? I have never attacked either of these two saints. I have even defended Padre Pio against the anti-semitic phrase which Katolik attributes to him.

I have problems with Maximilian Kolbe’s vision about the Immaculate on the Kremlin, but I have never attacked him. I respect his death too much. At all times I have written of both of these Franciscans with respect. Will you please stop saying untrue things about me.
 
Dear Maccabees,

Father A has never accused Blessed Padre Pio of anti-semitism, nor has he ever definitely admitted that the normal Orthodox perception of St. Kolbe’s dream is the correct one. So please do not so easily accuse him of attacking these great saints. Of course, you can criticize him for many other things – heeheehee- but not these.

God bless,

Greg
 
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