Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

[KyivAndrew]

Sorry a bit more Jose L. The Russian state only recognizes four “traditional” faiths for Russia: Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, so Catholicism is excluded. The Russian State has allowed for four Roman Catholic dioceses to exist but their treatment can be rough at times as below.
nytimes.com/2002/09/13/world/world-briefing-europe-russia-archbishop-appeals-to-rights-groups.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRoman%20Catholic%20Church

nytimes.com/2002/07/09/world/world-briefing-europe-russia-church-dispute-festers.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRoman%20Catholic%20Church

God Bless.

 

[josie_L]

Hey josie. No it is also Ukrainian Orthodox loyal to the Kyiv Patriarchate but Roman Catholics as well face discrimination in Russia. There are strict government regulations on Roman Catholics building parishes, starting churches. With the Ukrainians, it is simply illegal, arrested, bye. With the Roman Catholics, as I understand it, you cannot open up new parishes other than the ones the state has allowed you and if you proselytize Catholicism, wait for a little knock on the door in the night. Seriously, the Russian Government under Putin has made a pact basically with the Russian Orthodox Church as it the latter were an instrument of the state. So if you go to visit Russia, I do not think you will find a booming Roman Catholic community either. In a formerly communist state, where one may have to sign 20 licenses just to start a Catholic Church possibly, well, it’s pretty easy to make sure it doesn’t happen. So it’s discrimination. The Russian Orthodox Church is free to open up churches anywhere in the West or in Ukraine, but inside the Russian state itself it is either illegal (Ukrainian Catholic) or discriminated against (Roman Catholic) for all intents and purposes, which is my understanding. The ROC is frightened that if Catholics were free to proselytize, many, many Russians would leave the state institution of the ROC and perhaps give Catholicism a try, hence the roadblocks. This is my understanding.

God Bless.

Thanks Andrew. Another question, would you say it’s sort of like caesaropapism? God bless.

 

[josie_L]

Sorry a bit more Jose L. The Russian state only recognizes four “traditional” faiths for Russia: Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, so Catholicism is excluded. The Russian State has allowed for four Roman Catholic dioceses to exist but their treatment can be rough at times as below.
nytimes.com/2002/09/13/world/world-briefing-europe-russia-archbishop-appeals-to-rights-groups.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRoman%20Catholic%20Church

nytimes.com/2002/07/09/world/world-briefing-europe-russia-church-dispute-festers.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRoman%20Catholic%20Church

God Bless.

I think I’ll be doing some more research on the matter. I wasn’t aware that religious repression was getting this bad in Russian. Obviously this doesn’t help relations between the CC and OC.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Thanks Andrew. Another question, would you say it’s sort of like caesaropapism? God bless.

Yes, without hesitation, unfortunately. Anytime the Church gets too close to Caesar, this is what happens, as with the ROC today. No doubt. Its worse because Moscow has had messianic pretensions of being the Third Rome for some time now. The problem of course is that Caesar in this case is a former K.G.B. agent whose oligarchy runs the country like a fiefdom and kills journalists or opponents at will. Putin even started up a xenophobic youth group for Russians called “Nashi” where young Russians have summer camps and put on plays showing the American president and the British P.M. as prostitutes all in the interests of protecting Mother Russia. I really, really wish Russia could join the community of democracies or Christendom, however you wish to call it. But the wish for the strong hand has been there for so long, whether Tsar, Red Commisar, or K.G.B. Colonel.

Russia commentators from both left (Stephen Cohen) and right (Richard Pipes) are astounded at the fact that Russia never in its history has had one peaceful DEMOCRATIC transition in power. Either the successor kills his predecessor (Lenin - tsar), exiles him (Brezhnev - Khrushchev) or its all smoke and mirrors with no people (name removed by moderator)ut (Yeltsin - Putin).

I mean just today Putin had a meeting with young students and the students beforehand were actually lectured on which words they specifically could not use: “Medvedev” was forbidden (the president), “bad” I think was forbidden. And the students all stayed with the script. Just as in Ukraine, Kirill did not go out of his way to meet the common people but all the speeches were carefully crafted to the script (really political in Eastern Ukraine, with politics trumping religion) and questions from journalists were avoided pointedly at times to avoid all those unpleasant topics like Ukrainian Catholics or Orthodox.

Here is a report from the internationally respected Freedom House institution which mentions the discrimination against Catholics in modern Russia along with other Russian state abuses. It might help. God Bless.

freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=140&edition=8&ccrcountry=166&section=86&ccrpage=37

 

[josie_L]

Yes, without hesitation, unfortunately. Anytime the Church gets too close to Caesar, this is what happens, as with the ROC today. No doubt. Its worse because Moscow has had messianic pretensions of being the Third Rome for some time now. The problem of course is that Caesar in this case is a former K.G.B. agent whose oligarchy runs the country like a fiefdom and kills journalists or opponents at will. Putin even started up a xenophobic youth group for Russians called “Nashi” where young Russians have summer camps and put on plays showing the American president and the British P.M. as prostitutes all in the interests of protecting Mother Russia. I really, really wish Russia could join the community of democracies or Christendom, however you wish to call it. But the wish for the strong hand has been there for so long, whether Tsar, Red Commisar, or K.G.B. Colonel.

Russia commentators from both left (Stephen Cohen) and right (Richard Pipes) are astounded at the fact that Russia never in its history has had one peaceful DEMOCRATIC transition in power. Either the successor kills his predecessor (Lenin - tsar), exiles him (Brezhnev - Khrushchev) or its all smoke and mirrors with no people (name removed by moderator)ut (Yeltsin - Putin).

I mean just today Putin had a meeting with young students and the students beforehand were actually lectured on which words they specifically could not use: “Medvedev” was forbidden (the president), “bad” I think was forbidden. And the students all stayed with the script. Just as in Ukraine, Kirill did not go out of his way to meet the common people but all the speeches were carefully crafted to the script (really political in Eastern Ukraine, with politics trumping religion) and questions from journalists were avoided pointedly at times to avoid all those unpleasant topics like Ukrainian Catholics or Orthodox.

Here is a report from the internationally respected Freedom House institution which mentions the discrimination against Catholics in modern Russia along with other Russian state abuses. It might help. God Bless.

freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=140&edition=8&ccrcountry=166&section=86&ccrpage=37

I was a subsriber to Amnesty International at one point so I was aware of human rights violations in Russia but just reading that article made me sick. I fear Russia will go back to its old ways again (or is it already there) as it seems they are no longer functioning as a democracy.

p.s. Do you usually hang out here for I have not seen you in the non-Catholic forum (that’s where I am for the most part)?

 

[KyivAndrew]

I was a subsriber to Amnesty International at one point so I was aware of human rights violations in Russia but just reading that article made me sick. I fear Russia will go back to its old ways again (or is it already there) as it seems they are no longer functioning as a democracy.

Yes, unfortunately it is going back to its old ways which makes life rougher for its democratic neighbours like Ukraine who wish to have freedom of religion and democracy. Putin has of late changed student history textbooks of late to whitewash Stalin and demonize the West, so a new generation can be raised in that culture. It makes it that much harder for Ukraine. In Ukraine’s last election, Russia helped the ROC’s main political ally in Ukraine, Yanukovych, to an astounding degree.

You’re from Montreal, n’est pas fellow Canuckster. Ontario here. Last presidential election in Ukraine, Canada’s Ukrainian community sent hundreds of observers to make sure the elections were fair, especially in the Russified areas of Donbas and Luhansk where the ROC blatantly campaigned for the former criminal Yanukovych who used every means available to win. A whole bunch of my friends went as international observers. When the Ukrainian Supreme Court voted that the elections for Yanukovych were a fraud, some of the evidence was actually seen by my friends in Donbas, invisible ink, busing voters to several polling stations, Yanukovych thugs roughing up people. It was traumatic and it was traumatic for the ultimate winner Victor Yushchenko who was the victim of a poisoning scheme that draws its roots back to a chemical clinic in Russia. Yushchenko is a believing Christian loyal to the Kyivan Patriarchate Ukrainian Orthodox Church. My cousins went out with Yushchenko’s daughter when she was in Canada some years back and my uncle asked her, how’s your father? Her father, right after the poisoning, would always point his fingers to his eyes, as in don’t cry, let’s get this on with this thing we started. I pray for his family, for his Church, and for Ukraine. God Bless!

 

[KyivAndrew]

p.s. Do you usually hang out here for I have not seen you in the non-Catholic forum (that’s where I am for the most part)?

I think I get stuck hanging around certain sub-forums depending on where I’m stuck. Yeah, I haven’t seen much of you either, at least here, though I can be found in the non-Catholic forum if the spirit moves me.

 

[Rkman]

HUH When will Patriarch Kirill sign an Unia with Rome, are you crazy? Kirill will not even extend an invitation to His Holiness Pope Benedict to visit “Holy” Moscow even though the Pope wants to visit Russia, so you think the Russian Church will sign an Unia? IMHO, Kirill serves the Russian State, Gosudarstvo, and serves Jesus Christ second. Kirill has followed the KGB Colonel Putin perfectly: no condemnation of Putin’s killing of journalists, human rights violations in Russia. Rkman, the CHEKA controls Russia and it surely has massive influence on the ROC; thankfully it does not control Ukraine.

O.K. Rkman. The ROC is o.k. with Catholics according to you? Well, there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia. Ukrainians are the second largest ethnic group in Russia, among whom are many, many Ukrainian Catholics. Simple Question: Name one Ukrainian Catholic parish in Russia. Name JUST one. They have tried to worship God as their grandparents did but they cannot. There is not one single Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia because it is illegal in the Chekist State! So please don’t come on here saying ROC is O.K. with Catholics, because that is not true and you are practicing hypocrisy. Can you Rkman, find one Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia. I mean Russia is a big country; surely with all the millions of Ukrainians there, Putin and Kirill could allow one little church to worship Jesus Christ, no? No, of course not. That would be the Christian thing to do, and Putin will not allow that, will he? They have tried to even open up Ukrainian language schools in Russia, only to be arrested, as if being Ukrainian meant you are a untermensch in Russia. Russia has to change before it destroys itself with alcohol, wars, immorality, murders, which is exactly the course it is on right now, and it is trying to take Ukraine down that path too. All with the approval of Putin and Kirill I assume.

The only extreme nationalists are the Russian ones like Zhirinovsky, Luzhkov, etc., who praise Holy Russia while they visit Ukraine and attempt to destroy it, because it is for Bolshaya Rossiya, right. Look in your own house Rkman.

I hope one day the Russian Orthodox can sit at the same table as the Catholic. But as long as the Russian Orthodox Church continues to serve the Caesar of Moscow and Russian political imperial ambitions over serving Jesus Christ, this will not happen. I pray for Russia, that it finally may find some light after all the problems and bloodshed caused by pretending to be the 3rd Rome.

I said IF ROC accepts Unia with Rome, Ukrainian Greco-Catholics would NOT have problems being under newly formed ‘Russian Greco-Catholic Church’. In this case you would put unity of Catholic Church as more important then nationalistic desires of your countrymen for independent Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church.
But when it comes to Orthodox church you support schismatic uncanonical UOC-KP and nationalistic desires of some people in Ukraine as more important then canonical unity of Orthodox Church.
So it is either hypocrisy on your part or ill desires toward catholicity or ‘Sobornost’ of Orthodox Church.

BTW I am not Russian.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I said IF ROC accepts Unia with Rome, Ukrainian Greco-Catholics would NOT have problems being under newly formed ‘Russian Greco-Catholic Church’. In this case you would put unity of Catholic Church as more important then nationalistic desires of your countrymen for independent Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church.

I would have absolutely no problem with Unia with a moral, non-imperial ROC. The late great Metropolitan Sheptytsky of our Ukrainian Catholic Church worked earnestly for uniya, and even was arrested by tsarist Russia. But there is little point talking about a hypothetical Uniya when the head of the Russian Orthodox Church refuses to invite, or let alone talk with the head of our Church, Pope Benedict who earnestly wishes to visit Moscow. Plus I am not a church law specialist so am not sure how any unias would be done. You have to understand that our Ukrainian Catholic Church has its own particularisms and that there are other Eastern Catholic Churches too. Christ comes before nation, not the other way around, which way is being propagated by the ROC now. The ROC has basically become a state pillar to Putin’s Chekist state. Patriarch Kirill stubbornly refuses to even discuss the matter of a Ukrainian Church with the Greek Patriarch, let alone with Patriarch Filaret. This is political and has more to do with Russia’s imperial ambitions over Ukraine than it has to do with living as brothers in Christ. Let’s say tomorrow the Greek Patriarch grants Patriarch Filaret his Kyivan Church. How do you think the Moscow Patriarch would respond and should he really have any voice on the matter anyway as, historically, it was Constantinople to which Kyiv drew its authority, not Moscow. Rkman, could you live with a Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate which is independent of Moscow and is recognized by the Greek Patriarch? Any problems on your part with this happening in the future, and it just might?

I will say it once; I will say it again. The ROC is afraid to agree to an autocephalous Ukr. Orthodox Church Patriarchate purely out of political not religious reasons. Its pretty simple. If the Kyivan Church is agreed, the ROC is no longer half the institution it is as Ukrainians on a per capita basis are more religious than Russians. There goes all that income to Moscow and a shot to the MP’s dreams of a 3rd Rome. I have not seen one concrete move by the MP to move towards any sort of Uniya or Christian understanding with any church for that matter. Stopping shooting bullets at Catholic Churches in Russia, however, could be a start.

God Bless.

 

[josie_L]

Yes, unfortunately it is going back to its old ways which makes life rougher for its democratic neighbours like Ukraine who wish to have freedom of religion and democracy. Putin has of late changed student history textbooks of late to whitewash Stalin and demonize the West, so a new generation can be raised in that culture. It makes it that much harder for Ukraine. In Ukraine’s last election, Russia helped the ROC’s main political ally in Ukraine, Yanukovych, to an astounding degree.

You’re from Montreal, n’est pas fellow Canuckster. Ontario here. Last presidential election in Ukraine, Canada’s Ukrainian community sent hundreds of observers to make sure the elections were fair, especially in the Russified areas of Donbas and Luhansk where the ROC blatantly campaigned for the former criminal Yanukovych who used every means available to win. A whole bunch of my friends went as international observers. When the Ukrainian Supreme Court voted that the elections for Yanukovych were a fraud, some of the evidence was actually seen by my friends in Donbas, invisible ink, busing voters to several polling stations, Yanukovych thugs roughing up people. It was traumatic and it was traumatic for the ultimate winner Victor Yushchenko who was the victim of a poisoning scheme that draws its roots back to a chemical clinic in Russia. Yushchenko is a believing Christian loyal to the Kyivan Patriarchate Ukrainian Orthodox Church. My cousins went out with Yushchenko’s daughter when she was in Canada some years back and my uncle asked her, how’s your father? Her father, right after the poisoning, would always point his fingers to his eyes, as in don’t cry, let’s get this on with this thing we started. I pray for his family, for his Church, and for Ukraine. God Bless!

Ahh, I knew there was a reason I liked you, your a canuck. On a more serious note, the thought that Russia might go red does freak me out a little, it reminds me of something I read in revelations:

“One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.”

I’m not saying it will happen but you never know. I hope for the sake of the Ukraine and all democracy loving people we can stop tyranny of this sort. I will pray for this. God bless.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Ahh, I knew there was a reason I liked you, your a canuck. On a more serious note, the thought that Russia might go red does freak me out a little, it reminds me of something I read in revelations:

“One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.”

I’m not saying it will happen but you never know. I hope for the sake of the Ukraine and all democracy loving people we can stop tyranny of this sort. I will pray for this. God bless.

Hey, Hey fellow Canuck. Yeah, my eyes are getting tired and when I get wound up on threads, I can’t sleep. With respect to Russia, I remember as children we did rosary crusades for Russia for its conversion (during the Soviet Union) as HH JP2 always thought the Virgin of Fatima saved him from that likely Russian K.G.B. assassination attempt on his life. (It was actually the Bulgarian K.G.B., but in the days of the Cold War, Russia called the shots for its Eastern satellites). All I can say is I wish a moral person like Gary Kasparov, Kasyanov or a Yavlinsky who do not have imperial Russian ambitions would get to run Russia. I think even the ROC would become a different institution. I think I’m nodding off but maybe just not yet (I guess I should check out the other forums too as you suggested)…God Bless!

 

[Aramis]

There are Russian Greek Catholic parishes in Russia. There are not many, but there are.

 

[KyivAndrew]

There are Russian Greek Catholic parishes in Russia. There are not many, but there are.

Yes, quite true, which makes me wonder why Moscow is then so scared specifically of the Ukrainian Catholics and allowing them at least one church? Is it strictly because of territorial jurisdiction or is there more to it than that?

 

[Aramis]

Yes, quite true, which makes me wonder why Moscow is then so scared specifically of the Ukrainian Catholics and allowing them at least one church? Is it strictly because of territorial jurisdiction or is there more to it than that?

Russian fear of Ukrainians in organized lots goes back into pre-imperial Russia; the Kyivan Rus was at one point the height of power.

As for the RGCC, it’s best described as “politely ignored in hopes it will fade away.” Generally, it is seen as part and parcel of the “Tolerated but untraditional faiths” and not much mention is made of it in hopes of avoiding causing others to flee the MP into the Russian Roman Bishop’s arms. Most priests of the RGCC are converts to Catholicism after ordination, tho in the US, some are not. Part of their being tolerated is that they are answerable to Roman Church Bishops, and that’s also been an issue for continuing the growth of the RGCC.

 

[John_Larocque]

For Orthodox, the See at Rome can be another Autocephalous church with which we share communion. What does “come in to Communion with Rome” mean to you?

What did it mean to Archbishop Elias Zoghby of blessed memory?

A century from now, the Zoghby initiative may be seen as prophetic. I hope it does.

 

[Hesychios]

I come here for the snacks. :coffeeread:
Hesychios;5531227:

I have made the strongest case for the Zoghby Initiative you will probably ever read from an Orthodox Christian.

It is clear the idea is dead.

How so? Because of the comments of people here?

I don’t know much about the Zoghby Initiative.

The Zoghby Initiative:

*"Tous Schismatiques?"

*In 1995 Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby of Baalbek, of blessed memory, made a two-point Profession of Faith:

• I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
• I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

Of course, this flies directly into the face of Papal Universal Jurisdiction, which did not exist as a dogma nor a theory in the first millenium (nor in 1724AD, when the Melkites first shared communion with Rome). The Melkite Catholic synod voted on this and 24 of the 26 bishops agreed… including the patriarch!

The only two bishops who objected were both from the diaspora (outside of the “home territory” of the Melkite church), appointed by and directly under the authority of the Pope.

Apparently no Eastern Catholic in the Eastern Catholicism forum (which is where this thread originated) was willing to support the idea.

 

[marymol]

A century from now, the Zoghby initiative may be seen as prophetic. I hope it does.

May be sooner …

There is that propehtic scene when St.Peter along with St.Thomas ( ?only occasion when latter gets named right after St.Peter !) are fishing all night and having caught nothing, is aksed by our Lord , to cast the net on the ’ right side …’

’ The Queen stands at right …’

After the not so successful efforts for unity, in the darkness of the fears from the past , would the Queen standing at right as beacon of tenderness and common , uncontested trustworthy traits , be able to fill the net that no longer breaks …such as through the trusting acknowledegemet of her Motherhood , for all her children …

so that the children would focus more on how beautiful the souls of the children are - through the merciful gift of the Holy Sacraments and not resort to see others through the distortion of veiled grudges …

So that the lamb and the sheep can be tended … in unity of hearts …after all, sheep and lamb are such that when there are wolves around,they tend to gather even closer together …

and all sheep skinned wolves would know better - that The Immacultae Heart would triumph and that they too can be transfigured …

Peace and prayers !

 

[Peter_J]

Hi all. Interesting discussion (just found it this evening).

p.s. Do you usually hang out here for I have not seen you in the non-Catholic forum (that’s where I am for the most part)?

Yeah I too am usually at the Non-Catholic Religions Forum, and I too am seeing a lot of names here that I haven’t seen in a while. Where have you all been?

 

[Peter_J]

I fear Russia will go back to its old ways again

I would say that Russia’s old ways were a whole lot better than the new way, i.e. 20th century communism (which I’m happy to say is gone now).

 

[josie_L]

I would say that Russia’s old ways were a whole lot better than the new way, i.e. 20th century communism (which I’m happy to say is gone now).

Do you think that Russia would ever revert back to communism? From the little I read it seems she is losing her grip on democracy and if that is the case how implausible would it be to imagine her going back to her old ways to regain the power she lost? Kyiv Andrew mentioned that Putin is already rewriting history under Stalin (so as to attract the youth in Russia I would assume).