Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

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Hi all. Interesting discussion (just found it this evening).

Yeah I too am usually at the Non-Catholic Religions Forum, and I too am seeing a lot of names here that I haven’t seen in a while. Where have you all been? 🙂
Actually this thread was moved as of today from the Eastern Catholicism forum. I actually visited that forum and this particular thread yesterday and struck a conversation with KyivAndrew on religious repression in Russia. I noticed that you usually hang out here. I come here often because the debates are much more vigorous than in the other forums.
 
BTW, does anyone happen to know what the current situation is like for Protestants in Russia? (Not trying to get off topic, just curious.)
 
BTW, does anyone happen to know what the current situation is like for Protestants in Russia? (Not trying to get off topic, just curious.)
“Notwithstanding these guarantees, the Orthodox Church of Russia has sought to assert and maintain its dominance in the face of challenges from foreign missionary organizations. A controversial law passed in 1997 asserted that only Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism had full legal standing. Other religious groups were required to demonstrate that they had been registered to operate in the Soviet Union and then Russia for at least 15 years. Without legal status, religious organizations are unable to open bank accounts or own property, among other activities.”

“A number of religious groups have experienced bias and harassment in recent years. These include Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, members of the Church of Scientology, and Seventh-Day Adventists.21 Anti-Semitism remains a serious problem, although President Putin has publicly pronounced that discrimination against Jews is intolerable, and prosecution for hate crimes has apparently increased.”

This was taken from a cite called Freedom House. Check out the whole article by clicking on the link in post #65.
 
BTW, does anyone happen to know what the current situation is like for Protestants in Russia? (Not trying to get off topic, just curious.)
Bad. It’s not THE officially accepted church for Christianity – there is only one really – the Russian Orthodox Church. Protestants, like Ukrainian Catholics, or for that matter Catholics, are discriminated against. The Russian Orthodox Church has become one of pillars on which K.G.B. Putin’s Chekist (Secret Police) state can stand in their mutual interests of an Imperial Great Russia.

On protestants:

nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/europe/23iht-church.4.12274801.html

christiantelegraph.com/issue1885.html

God Bless.
 
I don’t have any knowledge of which countries will become communist (either again or for the first time) in the future.
Well it’s not technically communist anymore, but Russia is undemocratic, authoritarian, clamps down on Freedom of the Press and shoots honest journalists like Anna Politkovskaya as if it was just another day. What Putin has done in Russia is supplanted Communism with what he likes to call a managed democracy, but it isn’t. The Cheka is the standard old term for the violent Soviet Secret Police. Anne Applebaum has argued that Russia now is basically a Chekist or (in the words of others) a Russian Fascist State. This Chekist state is supported by Putin’s cronies in the lucrative gas business in Russia (Gazprom), and by an ideology that emphasizes all of Russia’s Imperial Greatness, and the ROC. It’s a poisonous stew of nationalistic messianism (Nicolas Berdayev noted this about Russia), imperialism, dictatorialism at the top, a whitewashing of communist crimes, and the Russian Orthodox Church for religious buttressing.

There are many similarities between the Tsarist Regime, the Russian Communist regime, and today’s Chekist regime, a point Harvard Professor Richard Pipes always stressed ascribing the Russian craving for a brutal, strong hand to the legacy of Tsarist Patrimonialism where subjects had no rights.

And Russia, even with its population being decimated to alcoholism, its inhumane army where recruits get brutally hazed, some dieing, before being sent off to fight wars with Chechnya or Georgia, in spite of all this, Putin, instead of launching humanitarian help for the poor Russian people pulls stunts like this.

nytimes.com/2009/08/05/world/05patrol.html?_r=2

or

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8188532.stm

Russia has even brought back the old Stalinist anthem as its National Anthem which absolutely outraged all the numerous political prisoners who suffered under communism. Russia is not a democracy, like in the Soviet Union the press is not only not free, all T.V. stations get something called “temnyky”, instructions on how to put only positive spins on Putin. Its a controlled press just as in the Soviet Union. Anyone who dares to remember the sufferings under Communism in books like Orlando Figes has, has his works banned.

You wish to protest, Freedom of Assembly, in Russia? It will not be allowed usually, just as in the Soviet Union. Russia’s xenophobic Putin-formed youth groups (called Nashi, or OURs as opposed to theirs, the rest of the world) are allowed to protest and cast all insult in front of Western Embassies in Moscow. Once, pro-democracy protesters show up, like the Chess Player Gary Kasparov, they are arrested. So no freedom of assembly for all intents and purposes.

I also point to the fact that Putin in 2002 made it the year of Secret Police in Russia and actually had stamps to commemorate the occasion: a stamp was even issued to honour the head of the brutal K.G.B. in Ukraine at the time of the Great Famine where some 5-7 millions of Ukrainians died in 1932-33 in the Soviet Union. Now can you imagine modern Germany placing stamps honouring the Gestapo or SS with stamps of Himmler or Eichmann? This is the equivalent, yet Putin sees nothing wrong with it.

In any event, this thread started off as dealing strictly with the Russian Patriarch Kirill visiting Ukraine but thankfully he has returned to Moscow.

If we go on to talk about Russian internal politics, I do not know: is it not better to start a new thread: as in “Is Russia becoming an undemocratic, imperial, authoritarian power?”. I would not know which section to post that under, perhaps Secular News, I don’t know.

God Bless All!🙂
 
Oh sorry. Just so I don’t repeat myself, I actually posted a thread “Is Russia a Foe or Friend” in either politics or secular news about two months back so it actually has already been I guess discussed there as well. 😛
 
Oh, and keeping with Russian Patriarch Kirill’s message in Ukraine to submit all its Orthodox Churches to Moscow and that Ukraine remain subservient religiously and politically (and he is worried about losing Ukraine saying he may come back to stay for a while), here’s the reverse side of the coin from Putin:

Putin to the West: Hands off Ukraine Time Magazine:

"Putin’s reference on Sunday to “Little Russia” — a term used during the Russian Empire to describe parts of modern-day Ukraine that came under czarist rule — has raised hackles in Ukraine, where many consider it demeaning and offensive.

“These comments by Putin should be taken very seriously,” says Olexandr Paliy, a political analyst with the Institute of Foreign Policy at the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Diplomatic Academy. “Russia is engaged in a propaganda war against Ukraine, designed to convince the West not to support Ukraine. Russia doesn’t understand cooperation with equals, only with subordinates.”

Putin is not known for his tact when speaking of Russia’s western neighbor, which declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. In April 2008, a source told Russia’s Kommersant newspaper how Putin described Ukraine to George Bush at a NATO meeting in Bucharest: “You don’t understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us.”

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1900838,00.html

O.K. so Kirill did not know always how to address Ukrainians (“these people”) and his p.r. director calls us the derogatory Little Russians or Malorossy and Putin agrees, Ukraine is not a state. Now how can an independent Ukrainian country and church, which sacrificed so many millions, live with a nuclear-armed, expansionist, and anti-democratic neighbour like that?
 
The other issue is native Russian protestantism, which arises anmonst some of the groups known as “Old Believers”… some of whom crossed the line into what most would call protestantism by abolishing the sacrament of ordination, tho those groups are still liturgical Christians. Others are merely schismatic from Russian Orthodoxy, rejecting the Nikonian reforms.

Not all Old Believers are protestant. Many are just Old Ritualist; others go far beyond that.

Alaska has several flavors of Orthodox Old Believers.

In Russia, they are treated as badly as the Catholics, if not worse… for they claim to be Russian Orthodox.
 
There are many similarities between the Tsarist Regime, the Russian Communist regime, and today’s Chekist regime, a point Harvard Professor Richard Pipes always stressed ascribing the Russian craving for a brutal, strong hand to the legacy of Tsarist Patrimonialism where subjects had no rights.
I’m not here to laud the Czars, I simply wanted to point out that things were better under the “old ways” than under the Bolsheviks.

By all means I hope that, having thrown off the oppression of communism, Russia will leave behind it Czarist history as well and firmly embrace democracy.

Of course, the road to democracy isn’t always smooth – just consider the French Revolution.
 
I’m not here to laud the Czars, I simply wanted to point out that things were better under the “old ways” than under the Bolsheviks.

Of course, the road to democracy isn’t always smooth – just consider the French Revolution.
Hello Peter J. Yes on first point! On second, well, we did have quite the heated thread on the French Revolution in the Apologetics section not too long ago where we dealt with the fact that some of the radical revolutionaries, the Jacobins and the Herbertists, were more than simple democrats but wanted to replace Christianity by coercion with a new belief in a Civic Secular Religion with the Supreme Being, the Goddess of Reason, or Nature (take your pick) as the new god. The Christian calendar was even changed. Kind of like the Bolsheviks.

God Bless! 🙂
 
Hello Peter J. Yes on first point! On second, well, we did have quite the heated thread on the French Revolution in the Apologetics section not too long ago where we dealt with the fact that some of the radical revolutionaries, the Jacobins and the Herbertists, were more than simple democrats but wanted to replace Christianity by coercion with a new belief in a Civic Secular Religion with the Supreme Being, the Goddess of Reason, or Nature (take your pick) as the new god. The Christian calendar was even changed. Kind of like the Bolsheviks.

God Bless! 🙂
Interesting! I don’t think I’ve heard that comparison before.
 
Did you mention in the thread the fact that Bolsheviks were financed by Vatican bank as a tool to destroy Orthodox Church in Russia?
 
It is well known that all collaborators with occupying Third Reich Army flee along with them while victoriuous Red Army were coming.

I see their offspring specialized in twisting history, but is filled with the same hatred towards anything Russian.

Patriarch of Moscow hasn’t paid a visit to these people. He was just wisiting his own flock, and his own Church, to which the majority of Ukrainians belong to.
 
Yes, quite true, which makes me wonder why Moscow is then so scared specifically of the Ukrainian Catholics and allowing them at least one church? Is it strictly because of territorial jurisdiction or is there more to it than that?
I don’t understand this question.

Are you speaking about UGCC parishes in the nation of Russia?
 
I don’t understand this question.

Are you speaking about UGCC parishes in the nation of Russia?
Yes, Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes in the Russian Federation. I know in some places Ukrainians attempted to start such parishes in Russia but they were forbidden.

Aramis I think attributed it to Russia’s position on Ukrainians as an ethnic group I believe. God Bless.
 
Did you mention in the thread the fact that Bolsheviks were financed by Vatican bank as a tool to destroy Orthodox Church in Russia?
Are you crazy. I absolutely hate engaging in arguments with conspiracy nutters, but can you name one legitimate history book that says the Vatican financed the Bolshevik Revolution. Cite a source. What history book claims this? I have never heard such a bizarre claim but I guess it shows the ignorance and fear of Catholicism by such as yourself.

Please name one respected historian who has made this claim! If you have no support I will not engage in arguments with people who believe in phantoms. You have no legitimate historical source to support such a claim do you.
 
Did you mention in the thread the fact that Bolsheviks were financed by Vatican bank as a tool to destroy Orthodox Church in Russia?
Some pretty “far out” claims have been made in this thread, no doubt, but I don’t think that has been one of them.

BTW, eOxy, you do know this is a Catholic website right?
 
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