Ruthenian Music Revisions

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M.,

I’m glad Fr. T. didn’t use it in his church. I guess that’s the proper Helenic usage for Theophany!:rolleyes:

U-C
U-C

Well, I know Fr. T isn’t keen on Latinizations or Helenic usage so, hopefully, this is a good beginning…

Fr.T. did take the ECF down to Redstone Creek complete with processional cross, kadila, banners, icons, Gospel Book and candles and blessed the waters. He used an 'ice" cross and then threw the cross into the Creek at the end.

My Tsetka saw them walking down Main Street and called to ask me what was going on.

He does have some good ideas to keep the kids interested…

m
 
CHRISTOS RAZDAJETSJA!
SLAVITE JEHO!

Yes, if you go to the MCI RDL site and click on the first listing for THEOPHANY, it’s the first hymn you come to.

My friend Bonnie, who is a cantor at her parish, said her priest refused to let this one be sung for Theophany.

At least one of our priests has some taste in music
M.,

Here’s the clandestine link to the “new” Theophany hymn:

metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/TheophanyDivineLiturgy.pdf

U-C
 
That’s NOT a Latinization… that hymn’s in all those 1880’s books from Uzhorod and Ruthenia…😛
Funny, i can’t find that para-liturgical hymn in my Bokshai, Papp, Ratzin or Sokol Prostopinije books?🤷

U-C
 
begs for some facts and rationale to become resepctable.
**Liturgiam Authenticam

**30. In many languages there exist nouns and pronouns denoting both genders, masculine and feminine, together in a single term. The insistence that such a usage should be changed is not necessarily to be regarded as the effect or the manifestation of an authentic development of the language as such. Even if it may be necessary by means of catechesis to ensure that such words continue to be understood in the “inclusive” sense just described, it may not be possible to employ different words in the translations themselves without detriment to the precise intended meaning of the text, the correlation of its various words or expressions, or its aesthetic qualities. When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word ’adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation. Just as has occurred at other times in history, the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively, and should not be subject to externally imposed linguistic norms that are detrimental to that mission.
 
**"…the Christian faith is not imposed on anyone, it is a gift, an offer to mankind." (Pope Benedict XVI)

**I wonder why he did not say, “an offer to us all”? 😃
 
Mickey,

I am delighted that you have decided to engage in a discussion. I am hoping that that decision will ultimately extend to your thoughts on the music, which is where we started.

I am even more delighted that you quoted this passage from Liturgiam Authenticam; it is the very passage that I was alluding to in my comments to jj2011 (#41), and later to Woodstock.
When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word ’adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation.
This interplay is captured succinctly in “man”. It is also carried in expressions such as “every one” or, less well, in “us all”, where the interplay of individuality (one/us) and community (every/all) is maintained. On the other hand, “humanity”, “human race”, “humankind”, “mankind” and “men” only denote the whole group; the whole idea of the interplay is lost.

This passage in LA further argues that this nuance (among others) is so important that the use of the “man” should not be avoided merely because it also carries an exclusive meaning, pertaining only to males. (In any case, “man”, without an article, is rather generally and unambiguously inclusive.) I agree. As noted above, I prefer “Lover of man” over “loves us all” (and certainly over “Lover of mankind”.)

But I think that it needs to be emphasized that LA does not suggest that the idea is to use “man”, generally, because it has a masculine-only meaning among its meanings, and thus has male connotations. (There are of course specific exceptions to this point in certain uses of “man” - i.e., in reference to Christ or Christological typology.) Thus, when one hears the criticism that the use of “us all” represents a neutering, emasculation, or even a castration - all terms that have been used in discussion of horizontally inclusive language in the RDL (although not in this thread) - then the discussion has diverted completely from this passage in LA. There is no support in this passage for such criticism which shifts the discussion from translation to political ideology.

As I said above, I think that the use of words that can be gender-specific in gender-neutral contexts is disappearing our language - like it or not. These changes can be fought by folks who think such a fight is necessary. (And in years of discussing this point, I haven’t had an explanation offered as to why this particular fight is important.) My preference is that they would fight them somewhere other than in my church.
 
Just as has occurred at other times in history, the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively, **and should not be subject to externally imposed linguistic norms that are detrimental to that mission.
**
dvdjs;3190926:
There is no support in this passage for such criticism which shifts the discussion from translation to political ideology.
So it shifts the conversation from an internal and integral translational issue of which English word is most appropriate to convey the intended meaning to an externally imposed linguistic norm to speak of using horizontally inclusive language which is favored by feminists over the traditionally used inclusive language used by the Church for centuries and you don’t think Liturgicum Authenticum addresses this? And you don’t see any support in LA for criticizing new translations which deviate from centuries of tradition and which use externally imposed liturgical norms as a justification?
 
This passage of LA gives reasons why “man” may be preferred, notwithstanding linguistic developments that might not be authentic, and independent of externally imposed linguistic norms detrimental to the church’s doctrinal mission.

It does not say that “man” is preferred automatically (and elsewhere in LA warns against automatic word substitutions). It does not say that the opposition to such developments is a reason or a sufficient reason for the use of “man”. It does not say that opposition to those externally imposing linguistic norms is a reason or a sufficient reason. And it does not say that the masculine connotation is a reason or a sufficient reason.

It might have said these things, but it didn’t.

It might have specified developments and judged them inauthentic, but it didn’t. It might have determined that certain norms are detrimental, but it didn’t. It might have ruled that masculine generics are, in general, vital to the doctrinal mission of the church, but it didn’t.

Or to put it more succinctly, it might have made many of the common arguments that are used to criticize the horizontal inclusive language in the RDL, but it didn’t.
 
So it shifts the conversation from an internal and integral translational issue of which English word is most appropriate to convey the intended meaning to an externally imposed linguistic norm to speak of using horizontally inclusive language which is favored by feminists over the traditionally used inclusive language used by the Church for centuries and you don’t think Liturgicum Authenticum addresses this? And you don’t see any support in LA for criticizing new translations which deviate from centuries of tradition and which use externally imposed liturgical norms as a justification?
Amen, my brother. 👍
 
The demand within parts of the Catholic Church for inclusive language for use in the Bible, the Mass and other parts of the liturgy has increased in recent years. However, this demand has not come from the pews or from any groups representative of the Church’s grass roots. Rather, it reflects the efforts of well-placed people within the Church’s local administrations to bring religious practices into conformity with questionable policies in the secular world.
ad2000.com.au/articles/1998/jul1998p8_549.html
 
  1. A certain stability ought to be maintained whenever possible in successive editions prepared in modern languages. The parts that are to be committed to memory by the people, especially if they are sung, are to be changed only for a just and considerable reason. Nevertheless, if more significant changes are necessary for the purpose of bringing the text into conformity with the norms contained in this Instruction, it will be preferable to make such changes at one time, rather than prolonging them over the course of several editions. In such case, a suitable period of catechesis should accompany the publication of the new text.
Liturgiam Authenticam
 
Proponents of inclusive language often claim that English has evolved such that their proposals are little more than due recognition of current general usage; yet the kind of evidence they typically offer in support of their thesis itself undercuts the likelihood that we are dealing with a natural development of language. They point to the usage explicitly prescribed by the prestige media, by universities, and by government departments; they refer to style manuals in which inclusive language is one of a number of ways of promoting an agenda of political sensitivity.

Most telling of all, inclusivists usually give voice to their own commitment to bring about inclusive language, apparently unaware of the damage it does to their own case. If the fait of inclusive language were already accompli, this would be pointless, since there is no need to exhort one’s fellows to continue to speak as they speak. Nor is it easy to understand why so much effort should be expended to bring us where, as they claim, we have already arrived.

Fr Paul Mankowski
 
Inclusive language is a fraud. It may be a pious fraud, although I am inclined to think otherwise. In neither case does it make our thought more precise; in neither case does God’s love for us shine more clearly through Sacred Scripture and sacred worship. I applaud the dignity of womanhood as I applaud the virtue of chastity. Yet, as Cardinal Heenan remarked during the last Council, “Timeo peritos et dona ferentes”: I fear the little men with magnifying glasses; I fear the hyper-sensitive reformer with scissors and paste; I fear the experts, even when they bear gifts.

Fr Paul Mankowski
 
From the internet discussions that I’ve seen from laity, there has been far too much religious consumerism (looking to find a church to suit one’s pre-inclinations), and too little respect for the gravity of the disobedience.
There appears to be a misconception of the idea of “disobedience” along this thread as well a seeming conflation between “religious consumerism” and acting according to conscience, prayerful reflection, and according to canonical privaleges. Catholic canon law specifically allows for one to transfer to another church sui iuris for spiritual benefit, and does not equate this to disobedience. At a less formal level, it is certainly never disobedience to attend another Church sui iuris for Sundays and feast days.

In the Latin Rite it is certainly not considered disobedience for a Catholic to attend an Indult Latin Mass, Fraternity of St. Peter, etc. as a matter of liturgical preference. Nor is it for a “Ruthenian” who wishes to attend a Melkite church, etc.
 
Diak,
I think that if you want to take up, on pg 6, an issue discussed on page 2, then you perhaps should develop the context a little more fully, rather than lifting a single sentence. Here’s more:
If a person with a properly formed conscience believed that following the bishop’s orders put him and others, especially children, in grave spiritual danger then I would say his responsibility lies with the salvation of souls and not in following orders.
But: how to distinguish between a properly formed conscience and prelest; how to assess the gravity of spiritual danger; how to assess the reliability of one’s own thoughts on these matters. I think that the burden of proof that such an individual needs to meet is enormously high. Jesus gave us a church and an episcopate to guide us; choosing against His bishop is a very, very grave matter. From the internet discussions that I’ve seen from laity, there has been far too much religious consumerism (looking to find a church to suit one’s pre-inclinations), and too little respect for the gravity of the disobedience.

Woodstock already discussed the matter of conscience. My response did not oppose that point. Rather it asked: how does one differentiate between the impulses of properly formed conscience, vs. a narcissistic infatuation with one’s own “feelings”, vs. the machinations of the evil one? There is no conflation whatsoever; these are clearly very different impulses. But the question remains, how does one determine which is at work.

As I mentioned before, I think that prudence dictates that the burden of proof be set very high - because the risks are very high. These risks include not only simply being wrong for oneself, but also the risk of scandal to others. There is also the challenge of re-rooting and thriving after transplantation. (People who divorce once are considerably more likely than those still in their first marriage to have a future divorce.)

I am honestly not so interested in the canonical legalisms. But bear in mind that in recent history of the Catholic church, disobedience has taken many forms that clearly do not fall within the realm of canonical privilege. Likewise, church shopping certainly has involved more than just a transfer from one sui juris church to another.

Moreover, even if the transfer were limited to a transfer from one sui juris church to another, there are still problems. Think of it from the Orthodox point of view: every Orthodox cleric that I’ve spoken to regards the overlapping of jurisdictions in the US to be evil - not just uncanonical - but evil. And the choice of that designation is informed by problems of jurisdiction hopping. Perhaps this is why I haven’t heard clerics from other jurisdictions highlighting the right of OCA members to seek greener pastures given the difficulties facing the OCA at the moment.

Each individual has individual rights of action. In the end, it is for God discern the motives and to judge the action. In the meantime, each individual deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt about their own choices. With, perhaps some reinforcement about the dimensions and gravity of the problem, and help in reading the signposts on the path taken.
 
Not hostile to it, I just have enough common sense, good taste in music and a “cradle” Ruthenian’s love of tradition to know when something is messed up:p

Professor JMT couldn’t cut it with the Trads or the OCA and dazzeled Metropolitan Basil with enough junk that he’ll listen to ANYTHING…

THANK GOD there are enough of us “cradles” out there to keep THE TRADITION alive and not be “dazzled” by all the junk!
J.Michael Thompson has resigned from his position from the Ruthenian Metropolia. How will this affect the use of the new RDL music now?

Ung
 
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