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UnityofTrinity
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what kind of wine did the missionaries use for the Eucharist in places like Asia where vine isn’t something locally grown? Could the priests have used another alcoholic beaverage instead?
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FrDavid96
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No. They had to use grape wine. Nothing else could be substituted–not ever.what kind of wine did the missionaries use for the Eucharist in places like Asia where vine isn’t something locally grown? Could the priests have used another alcoholic beaverage instead?
Granted, we can’t trust everything we read on the internet, however, according to this site
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wine
wine was being made in China as early as the 2nd millenium BC.
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SonCatcher
Guest
They brought grapes and wheat with them.
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Amiciel
Guest
Although no grapes are growing here, imported grape wine, fit for the Eucharistic Celebration, is readily available. This is what we use.No. They had to use grape wine. Nothing else could be substituted–not ever.
Granted, we can’t trust everything we read on the internet, however, according to this site
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wine
wine was being made in China as early as the 2nd millenium BC.
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Richard320
Guest
I’m sure they brought it with them, same as they did when they established the California Missions. They planted grapes at the missions, but it takes a few years to get a vineyard established.
You have to remember, when there’s no army of EMHCs and only the celebrant receives the Precious Blood, a bottle of wine can last a while. Imagine how long a cask would last!
You have to remember, when there’s no army of EMHCs and only the celebrant receives the Precious Blood, a bottle of wine can last a while. Imagine how long a cask would last!
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
There has been trade between Europe and the middle East and the middle East and the far East for a very long time. Think of the wisemen who came from “the East”. Granted probably not China, but whereever they were from may have traded with far easterners and so spices and foods, and even wine grapes got transported.
And of course, if only the priest is having the consecrated wine (or communing at all at most Masses), a barrel or even a bottle of wine would last a long while.
And of course, if only the priest is having the consecrated wine (or communing at all at most Masses), a barrel or even a bottle of wine would last a long while.
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odile53
Guest
Actually, in New York State, there is a winery that produces sacramental wines–O-neh-da Vineyards. The public can’t buy those wines (you have to be clergy,) but they do have a “civilian” winery, Eagle Crest vineyards. Eagle Crest makes a good dry Reisling. The O-neh-da rose is one that my parish frequently uses.
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Leon_Bloy
Guest
I have read that priests imprisoned for the faith in Communist and prison labor camps, etc. have secretly celebrated mass using only a few drops of juice pressed from grapes they were able to obtain.
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centurionguard
Guest
Hello Father;No. They had to use grape wine. Nothing else could be substituted–not ever.
Granted, we can’t trust everything we read on the internet, however, according to this site
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wine
wine was being made in China as early as the 2nd millenium BC.
I assume when you speak of any grape wine, that it too must have been fermented?
Correct me if I’m wrong but somewhere (though unclear) I had heard where no fermented grape wine was available that pressed grapes used to make mustum in preparation of wine making was acceptable under extremely rare cases. Could you please clairify.
I had always thought a minimal amount of alcohol in the fermentation process was required to make grape wine acceptable for consecration.
Yours In Christ Jesus
Chris
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FrDavid96
Guest
Probably the best thing I can do here is refer you to these linksHello Father;
I assume when you speak of any grape wine, that it too must have been fermented?
Correct me if I’m wrong but somewhere (though unclear) I had heard where no fermented grape wine was available that pressed grapes used to make mustum in preparation of wine making was acceptable under extremely rare cases. Could you please clairify.
I had always thought a minimal amount of alcohol in the fermentation process was required to make grape wine acceptable for consecration.
Yours In Christ Jesus
Chris
From 1995
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19950619_pane-senza-glutine_en.html
And again in 2003
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030724_pane-senza-glutine_en.html
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puzzleannie
Guest
no it must be wine made from grapes and no other ingredients.what kind of wine did the missionaries use for the Eucharist in places like Asia where vine isn’t something locally grown? Could the priests have used another alcoholic beaverage instead?
since missionaries from the very beginning have been able to solve this issue I doubt it is a concern in this day and age of the global economy. It is a fact in some mission territories missionaries and the Catholic immigrants they accompanied in colonization, were responsible for establishing vineyards, a beneficial side effect.
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dochawk
Guest
In the Soviet gulag, priests would manage the Divine Liturgy in four minutes (!) using a palm for the Holy Table and bread and grape they managed to hide from their meager meals.I have read that priests imprisoned for the faith in Communist and prison labor camps, etc. have secretly celebrated mass using only a few drops of juice pressed from grapes they were able to obtain.
See The Other Catholics, Obedient and Faithful by Bonchonsky.
hawk
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promethius
Guest
Interesting question this brought up, Father… the link you sent RE: 2003 states the following:Probably the best thing I can do here is refer you to these links
From 1995
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19950619_pane-senza-glutine_en.html
And again in 2003
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030724_pane-senza-glutine_en.html
- A priest unable to ingest even a minimal amount of wine, who finds himself in a situation where it is difficult to obtain or store mustum, when taking part in a concelebration, may with the permission of the Ordinary receive Communion under the species of bread only.
Would that cover the case of no wine or grape juice available as well? As in, there is no wine, and due to lack of grape growing capability in some regions, back in the days before the global economy, could a missionary priest have obtained permission of the Ordinary to carry out the mass with only the bread?
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FrDavid96
Guest
No.Interesting question this brought up, Father… the link you sent RE: 2003 states the following:
- A priest unable to ingest even a minimal amount of wine, who finds himself in a situation where it is difficult to obtain or store mustum, when taking part in a concelebration, may with the permission of the Ordinary receive Communion under the species of bread only.
Would that cover the case of no wine or grape juice available as well? As in, there is no wine, and due to lack of grape growing capability in some regions, back in the days before the global economy, could a missionary priest have obtained permission of the Ordinary to carry out the mass with only the bread?
Different situations.
The paragraph you quoted refers to a priest who is a con-celebrant. The main celebrant must still consume under both species, and certainly must consecrate both.
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promethius
Guest
Thank you for the clarification, Father! I missed the concelebrant part (too little sleep, not enough coffee!)No.
Different situations.
The paragraph you quoted refers to a priest who is a con-celebrant. The main celebrant must still consume under both species, and certainly must consecrate both.
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