"Sacramento crowd pulls down, sets fire to Saint Junipero Serra statue, beats it with sledgehammer." Report

[phil19034]

mdgspencer:

Sacramento crowd pulls down, sets fire to Serra statue, beats it with sledgehammer - California Catholic Daily

“One man burned the face of the Serra statue with an ignited spray from an aerosol can, before it was pulled from its base using tow straps. After the statue fell, members of the crowd struck the statue with a sledgehammer and other objects, dancing and jumping upon it.”

Further info:

“Statues of Serra, the 18th century Franciscan friar who served as principal architect of the California mission system during the era of Spanish colonization, have long been a flashpoint among indigenous activists. The mission system was designed to convert and acculturate the Native population to Catholicism and European culture, and this was done by confining them to missions up and down the coast. Natives who tried to escape were captured. Those who disobeyed were beaten. Indigenous beliefs and customs were banned…The Los Angeles action was peaceful — no police were present — and the vibe was more familial ceremony than protest.”

At Los Angeles toppling of Junipero Serra statue, activists want full history told

Did anyone check why it was pulled down?

But that’s simply not true. It’s totally false.

The missions were set up to be sanctuaries for converts.

The missions did NOT force conversions. The missions were a place for converts to go and live.

The Catholic Church does a MASIVE background check on people before declaring them a Saint.

This Saint was verified for decades. There was nothing in his back ground that was negative.

He protected natives against the Spanish military, he pleaded against the death penalty when natives massacred missions in CA. This one act alone lead the leader of one massacre to become Catholic

Here is a video on him

Passing of Fr. Ratzinger/The Truth About St. Junipero Serra - Relevant Radio (Starting at minute 23:00)

Plus, you can listen to the Archbishop of San Francisco discuss this:
Atoning for the destruction of statues - Relevant Radio (Starting at the begining)

Yes, the Spanish soldiers did some bad things. However SAINT Junipero Serra should NOT be lumped into this.

He was a DEFENDER of the native people & took great care of the ingenious peoples who came to his missions.

 

[phil19034]

But you need to be aware of what he represents to the people who were here a long time before we were.

Yeah? But what about the many natives in his time who LOVED him and were THANKFUL that he brought them Christianity?

Should the man be vilified because non-Catholics were ticked that many of their people wanted to become Catholic?

The CHURCH was 100% against forced conversions and so was THIS SAINT.

I’m sure some of the Spanish soldiers tried to force conversions, but that’s something the Church and the missions were totally against.

BTW - the beatings for abandoning the missions applied to white priests too. When you joined the mission, you KNEW what you were signing up for. You were signing up to live there for life.

The missions were similar to monasteries (in a sense). You moved there for life. So if you abandoned the mission after receiving free room, board, protection, etc without permission, it was kind of like skipping out on rent.

If you don’t understand a mission from the Catholic point of view, then you will not understand them. They really were like monasteries.

 

[Freddy]

He was a DEFENDER of the native people & took great care of the ingenious peoples who came to his missions.

As I said, he may well have been a saint. He may well have been a great man. But it’s what he represented seems to have been the problem.

We have the same situation in Australia. There is a large statue of Captain Cook in the middle of the city. He did a lot of good during his time in Australia. He was a generous man. A sympathetic man. A brave man. A man anyone could look up to. But…

…he was the man that claimed Australia for the British Crown. A land already occupied. But it was classed as Terra Nullius - an empty land. So there for the taking. And after it was taken the original inhabitants have suffered - and are still suffering, to our shame, terribly. The Aborigines in Tasmania were actually wiped out. Every last one killed.

So even though Cook is a man to be admired, in the eyes of Aborigines he represents all that was taken from them. So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

 

[mdgspencer]

.
This article on Saint Junipero Serra, “Who Is St. Junipero Serra, Anyway,” gives a good account of his life, dispelling criticisms that are not justified, at https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/06/22/who-is-st-junipero-serra-anyway/

 

[phil19034]

So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

So Serra is to be vilified because of his nationality & because the Spanish came to the America’s 200 years before he did?

He wasn’t part of the military campaign. He was an evangelist.

What he did was no different than what St Patrick did in Ireland. He was bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people who didn’t know Christ.

People who hate this Saint actually hate the Catholic Church. This is Catholic bigotry masked as “social justice.”

Tearing down his statues is not justice… it is injustice.

This Saint never claimed land, he never raped people, he never killed anyone, etc.

The CRIMES he’s being accused of doing are horrible… yet he did NONE of them.

What he represents is Christianity & the Catholic Church coming to the Americas. He doesn’t represent Spain, he doesn’t represent Europe, etc. He represents Jesus Christ, and they hate him for that.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Y’all surprised? If you didn’t see this coming, I think you should do some reading on Marxist thought. Because this is EXACTLY what they want.

 

[jeannetherese]

“But you need to be aware of what he represents to the people who were here a long time before we were.”

I’m not sure that he represents the same thing to people who were here before you were. Different people have different opinions. If you visit the missions today, you will find people worshipping there whose ancestors were converted by Saint Junipero Serra. the fact that the statue is being attacked by a small group, rather than having its removal voted on might indicated that the group vandalizing doubts that others are in agreement with their opinions.
There are a limited number of people involved in vandalizing the statue and I’m not sure that they have any more right to speak for others (including those whose ancestors chose Christ) than anybody else does.
Who gets

 

[JimG]

The whole episode sounds demonic to me. Mob rule and destruction. Exorcism, prayer, and fasting are needed.
Will these mobsters wish to change the names of California cities named after saints and sacraments to something more Marxist? No doubt that will be the next push.

 

[Thorolfr]

Not all cultures are equal, and one of the things he put a stop to was infanticide and human sacrifice. He is one of Gods saints and the natives should be glad he fought so hard to save the souls of their ancestors.

I think you’re getting your Native Americans mixed up. The Native Americans in California did not practice human sacrifice. Perhaps you’re thinking of the Aztecs.

 

[Thorolfr]

.
This article on Saint Junipero Serra, “Who Is St. Junipero Serra, Anyway,” gives a good account of his life, dispelling criticisms that are not justified, at

Here’s what a different account at PBS has to say:

Despite the frequent conflicts between military and religious authority, for Alta California’s Indians the missions and their Franciscan administrators were part and parcel of an enormously destructive colonization process. The Spanish, largely through disease, were responsible for a population decline from about 300,000 Indians in 1769 to about 200,000 by 1821. The strenuous work regime and high population density within the missions themselves also caused high death rates among the mission Indians. By law, all baptized Indians subjected themselves completely to the authority of the Franciscans; they could be whipped, shackled or imprisoned for disobedience, and hunted down if they fled the mission grounds. Indian recruits, who were often forced to convert nearly at gunpoint, could be expected to survive mission life for only about ten years. As one Friar noted, the Indians “live well free but as soon as we reduce them to a Christian and community life… they fatten, sicken, and die.”

In 1780, Serra wrote: “that spiritual fathers should punish their sons, the Indians, with blows appears to be as old as the conquest of [the Americas]; so general in fact that the saints do not seem to be any exception to the rule.”

Watch The West | Full Documentary Now Streaming | Ken Burns | PBS

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

So even though Cook is a man to be admired, in the eyes of Aborigines he represents all that was taken from them. So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

I get that, but if he didn’t intentionally do something wrong it seems better to redirect their anger to someone who is actually guilty.

 

[Thorolfr]

Freddy:

So even though Cook is a man to be admired, in the eyes of Aborigines he represents all that was taken from them. So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

I get that, but if he didn’t intentionally do something wrong it seems better to redirect their anger to someone who is actually guilty.

So, are you saying that if someone doesn’t intend to something wrong, but they do, it’s OK?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

“But you need to be aware of what he represents to the people who were here a long time before we were.”

I’m not sure that he represents the same thing to people who were here before you were. Different people have different opinions. If you visit the missions today, you will find people worshipping there whose ancestors were converted by Saint Junipero Serra. the fact that the statue is being attacked by a small group, rather than having its removal voted on might indicated that the group vandalizing doubts that others are in agreement with their opinions.
There are a limited number of people involved in vandalizing the statue and I’m not sure that they have any more right to speak for others (including those whose ancestors chose Christ) than anybody else does.

You are free to ignore any potential grievances, real or imaginary, that led to this incident, jeanne. You are free to discount them even if you do consider them.

You are also free to consider this an act of vandalism by a mob. It’s entirely your call.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So even though Cook is a man to be admired, in the eyes of Aborigines he represents all that was taken from them. So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

I get that, but if he didn’t intentionally do something wrong it seems better to redirect their anger to someone who is actually guilty.

That would run into the tens of thousands of those who were involved in taking the land from the original inhabitants. Even hundreds of thousands.

Everyone needs a point of focus. Cook is it. As I said, it was he who claimed the land. Almost certainly in good faith. But what he sowed the aborigines reaped.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

So Serra is to be vilified because of his nationality & because the Spanish came to the America’s 200 years before he did?

No, you are still missing the point. He represents what ocurred. Just as Cook represents what happened to the original inhabitants of Australia.

You don’t have to be a bad person to be part of the problem.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Freddy:

So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

So Serra is to be vilified because of his nationality & because the Spanish came to the America’s 200 years before he did?

No, you are still missing the point. He represents what ocurred. Just as Cook represents what happened to the original inhabitants of Australia.

You don’t have to be a bad person to be part of the problem.

Why? Why does a priest represent what the Spanish Crown and what the Spanish military was doing?

Why does a priest get thrown into that?

There is NO REASON except anti-Catholicism

 

[phil19034]

Read this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/30/statues-saint-junpero-serra-deserve-stay/

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

phil19034:

Freddy:

So you pasting info that paints Serra as a good man - even a great man, is missing the point completely.

So Serra is to be vilified because of his nationality & because the Spanish came to the America’s 200 years before he did?

No, you are still missing the point. He represents what ocurred. Just as Cook represents what happened to the original inhabitants of Australia.

You don’t have to be a bad person to be part of the problem.

Why? Why does a priest represent what the Spanish Crown and what the Spanish military was doing?

Why does a priest get thrown into that?

There is NO REASON except anti-Catholicism

If you can’t differentiate between what some Catholics did and Catholicism then there’s not a lot of use continuing this line of discussion.

 

[jeannetherese]

You are also free to consider this an act of vandalism by a mob. It’s entirely your call.

It’s a pretty small group of people who are committing these acts of vandalism. I don’t know that they really are in a position to speak for anyone but themselves.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You are also free to consider this an act of vandalism by a mob. It’s entirely your call.

It’s a pretty small group of people who are committing these acts of vandalism. I don’t know that they really are in a position to speak for anyone but themselves.

I don’t either. Maybe we should investigate further so we’re both more informed.