po18guy
Well-known member
The founding act of disobedience. A day of infamy. The rendering asunder of the Body of Christ. I would not want to answer for that.
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Usagi
Guest
Before, of course. Original Sin and all that. We’re not saying that everyone is happily innocent and Heaven-bound before they hear the gospel.
The question is whether God may have His ways of saving those He chooses even if they are never able to hear the gospel by the normal means…
Usagi
po18guy
Well-known member
I will be provocative again. Recall that “Lucifer” means light.
By its fruits you shall know it. The Church that exists in all corners of the earth is the one that was sent.
The evil one found a heart that was full of disobedience and of bitter hatred toward the Jews. He used it.
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RobHom
Guest
Yes I do believe it was the “Baltimore Catechism”…so you are probably right…sometimes its hard remembering everything that happened half a century ago…
So then, the point is well concluded that the “Catechism” is not a new novelty item.
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Reformed
Guest
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. - the Holy Bible
So, was Pope Leo X the angel of light from Satan or was Martin Luther the angel of light from Satan? We shall know them by their fruits according to Jesus.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X
http://www.americansforprosperity.org/includes/imagemanager/images/blog/may/wolf_sheeps_clothing.jpg
Martin Luther or Pope Leo X?
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cfrancis
Guest
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RobHom
Guest
Perhaps according to “your” opinion.
You do NOT understand the Catholic position on this, and it would seem that you understand virtually nothing about Catholicism, period.
If one has the Word revealed to them, and they are brought to knowledge, and they reject that Word and the knowledge, then yes…they have condemned themselves.
Surely you aren’t foolish enough to believe that you can have knowledge of Christ, and reject Him…and yet receive salvation?
That is an absurd notion!
Wrong. Embracing sola scriptura, a man-made theology, and one that tries to hobble God and corral Him into your notion of what you think He should be…is wrong.
I believe you missed the entire point of those Chapters. GO back and read them again without your “preconceived notions” of what you “think” they say.
You needn’t bother. Your “personal interpretations” are neither desired nor requested. I’m quite sure we can figure it out for ourselves without your misguided “help”…
My, my…how arrogantly gracious of you…
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Reformed
Guest
Maybe Joseph Smith was right after all I don’t think so.
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Reformed
Guest
Okay, when is someone condemned, before or after they hear the gospel?
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RobHom
Guest
I think that little bit of advice has been given to you already on several occasions…Well open it up, pray and read…
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Reformed
Guest
Well, the Catholic Catechism says one thing and the Holy Scripturres says something different. So, when is someone condemned, before or after they hear the gospel? Will you turn to Sacred Tradition and the Catechism for the answer, or will you turn to the Bible. A hint would be in John chapter 3, and Romans 10 if you want the answer according to the Scriptures.
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RobHom
Guest
As loosely as you tend to “interpret the Bible”…John 3 is not the only place where its quite clear.
But if you are trying to somehow use that as a justification for calvinism…thats going to be a reallllly long strettttttccccchhhhh.
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M0nkey
Guest
Reformed,
I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I think it’s laudable that you are asking the right question and seeking the truth in sincerity of heart. Try not to argue your theological points in light of your theological beliefs, doing that would be tantamount to a scholar of the law who did not see the Christ right in front their eyes.
First of all, not one person can give you the full blown Tradition. You can’t sum up 2000+ year (if you count O.T. Traditions) of Divine Revelation.
Second of all, have you attended RCIA classes? These classes will give you the authentic Catholic Tradition in it’s formal context.
Next, the key to understanding Sacred Tradition is to understand Divine Revelation. God has chosen a people (the elect) to follow on his word. In the old covenant, God freely chooses Abraham and makes him a promise. In the new covenant, God chooses His Church as the elect and bride. I have scripture to back this up, but right now I’m too lazy to go look those up.
I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I think it’s laudable that you are asking the right question and seeking the truth in sincerity of heart. Try not to argue your theological points in light of your theological beliefs, doing that would be tantamount to a scholar of the law who did not see the Christ right in front their eyes.
First of all, not one person can give you the full blown Tradition. You can’t sum up 2000+ year (if you count O.T. Traditions) of Divine Revelation.
Second of all, have you attended RCIA classes? These classes will give you the authentic Catholic Tradition in it’s formal context.
Next, the key to understanding Sacred Tradition is to understand Divine Revelation. God has chosen a people (the elect) to follow on his word. In the old covenant, God freely chooses Abraham and makes him a promise. In the new covenant, God chooses His Church as the elect and bride. I have scripture to back this up, but right now I’m too lazy to go look those up.
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Reformed
Guest
That’s no answer to a simple question. Are we condemned before or after we hear the gospel? The Catechism gives us one answer and John chapter gives us a different answer in John chapter 3. You guys are so afraid of the Bible. It doesn’t matter if the Bible is no longer in Latin, you guys still don’t read it.
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RobHom
Guest
So again you are expounding to facts based on your opinion? My, how novel!!
ALL OF THE ABOVE!
Again, I think you are a little off kilter where Romans 10 is concerned. I think you miss much of the message there.
R
Reformed
Guest
Do you even know what the context the question came from? I think you have to go back a few posts. Are you trying to answer the question about being condemned before or after hearing the gospel? Or, maybe you are answering another question? I’m not looking for a deep theological response and predestination.Reformed,
I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I think it’s laudable that you are asking the right question and seeking the truth in sincerity of heart. Try not to argue your theological points in light of your theological beliefs, doing that would be tantamount to the a scholar of the law who did not see the Christ right in front of them.
First of all, not one person can give you the full blown Tradition. You can’t sum up 2000+ year (if you count O.T. Traditions) of Divine Revelation.
Second of all, have you attended RCIA classes? These classes will give you the authentic Catholic Tradition in it’s formal context.
Next, the key to understanding Sacred Tradition is to understand Divine Revelation. God has chosen a people (the elect) to follow on his word. In the old covenant, God freely chooses Abraham and makes him a promise. In the new covenant, God chooses His Church as the elect and bride. I have scripture to back this up, but right now I’m too lazy to go look those up.
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M0nkey
Guest
I simply answered your OP.
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RobHom
Guest
It was a straightforward answer.
This is a question that you guys love to ask, so before I answer it, YOU are required to answer a question for me:
Now, since “modern man” up until recently, and I do mean recently…as in just within the past few years, there have been tribes of people discovered living in remote areas where no-one has ever had contact with them, other than themselves. Do YOU believe they are condemned because they have not heard the Word of God? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.
No it doesn’t. You are once again stating your “opinion”, without regards to facts.
Thank you for the good laugh!!Again you are spouting your opinion. And yes, at the same time you are bearing false witness, as well as proving your ignorance of Catholics and Catholicism. Do you ever tire of this nonsense?
Seems by now…given the level of knowledge that many here (Catholics) have regarding scriptures…that you would know better than to make silly and false statements like the one above…
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Reformed
Guest
I can’t get an answer to the simple question of are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel?
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JRKH
Guest
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