Sacred Oral and Written Tradition

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Tomster said:
Perhaps Reformed can begin with the Reformation idea of Sola Fidei/Sola Gratia. Historically we know that the architects of the Reformation, Luther and Calvin, believed that a person’s choices, whether good or bad, made no difference to his salvation or damnation: their salvation and damnation are decided and determined entirely by God.
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I believe God was the architect of the Protestant Reformation. Are you saying man is sovereign in salvation in light of 1 Cor 1, Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, John 1, John 6, and John 10 for starters? Please join us in our inter-denominational Bible Study on 1 Cor lead by a dear Roman Catholic brother. 🙂 Paul tells us that God chose the foolish things of the word to shame the wise in chapter 1. 🤷

Maybe the predestined ones will click on this link and join us…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731&page=28

http://www.todoslosperros.com/razas/basset.jpg

I think I need to take my dog for a walk. I’ll see the predestined ones on our shared Bible Study.
 
novaslasher said:
I understand your frustration in trying to pin down the content of Sacred Tradition. It sounds like what would most appeal to you would be a list of teachings that comprise Sacred Tradition as handed down from the Apostles; unfortunately you won’t find anything like this.

I’m also trying to get a better understanding of Sacred Tradition. I’m taking an intro graduate Catholic theology course at Christendom College and one of the lectures dealt with Tradition. According to our professor, Sacred Tradition complements Sacred Scripture and is coequal to Scripture. Tradition was the form in which the original teachings of Christ and the Apostles were handed down in the early Church before the Scriptures were completed and the canon was sealed. The Church Fathers do give an indication of the teachings of Tradition, but their combined written teachings are not the same thing as Tradition. Tradition is transmitted through the Magisterium and is not necessarily found in the individual teachings of each Church Father. The Fathers are not considered infallible and they can err (for example look at some of the writings of Origen). But when the Fathers agree on a teaching, it is a sign that they are teaching from Tradition.

There is a debate within Catholic theological circles about whether the entire content of Sacred Tradition is found within Sacred Scripture. Some theologians hold that there exists a subset of Sacred Tradition called constitutive Tradition. Constitutive tradition is extra-scriptural doctrines with no clear foundation in Scripture. Those who hold this view believe that some teachings of Tradition (like the canon of Scripture) are not in Scripture. A key point is that even though constitutive Tradition is extra-Scriptural, it does not contradict Sacred Scripture.

Other theologians believe that constitutive Tradition does not exist. Instead they believe that all Catholic teachings have at least a starting point within Scripture. Those who hold this view believe that Sacred Tradition is more akin to the authentic interpretation of Sacred Scripture by the Magisterium (those theologians who support constitutive Tradition also believe Tradition plays a large role in giving authentic interpretation to Scripture).

I’ll leave out the details of the debate between the two camps (such as whether the canon of Scripture is a true element of constitutive Tradition).

No matter which view is correct, Tradition should be viewed as an organic embodiment of the living teachings of Christ in the Church. It provides an authentic interpretation of the Scriptures and the living manifestation of those teachings (such as the Sacraments and liturgy). Hence you won’t find a laundry list of Traditions.

A good scholarly work to look at is “Tradition and Traditions” by Yves Congar. I’m reading through that one right now.
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I think this excellent post answers my OP question, don’t you?
 
Reformed said:
I believe God was the architect of the Protestant Reformation. Are you saying man is sovereign in salvation in light of 1 Cor 1, Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 9, John 1, John 6, and John 10 for starters? Please join us in our inter-denominational Bible Study on 1 Cor lead by a dear Roman Catholic brother. 🙂 Paul tells us that God chose the foolish things of the word to shame the wise in chapter 1. 🤷.
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Personally, I believe the Protestant Reformation was the work of Satan.
 
cfrancis said:
Personally, I believe the Protestant Reformation was the work of Satan.
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Personally, I believe the Protestant Reformation was the work of God. Therefore, join us in our inter-denominational bible study led by Ryan.

John or Johann Tetzel (1465 – 11 August 1519) was a German Dominican preacher remembered for selling indulgences and for speaking the couplet “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.”[1] Tetzel even went as far as creating a chart that listed a price for each type of sin. In 1517, Tetzel was trying to raise money for the ongoing construction of St. Peter’s Basilica and it is believed that Martin Luther was inspired to write his Ninety-Five Theses, in part, due to Tetzel’s actions during this period of time.[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel
 
Reformed said:
Personally, I believe the Protestant Reformation was the work of God. Therefore, join us in our inter-denominational bible study led by Ryan.

John or Johann Tetzel (1465 – 11 August 1519) was a German Dominican preacher remembered for selling indulgences and for speaking the couplet “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.”[1] Tetzel even went as far as creating a chart that listed a price for each type of sin. In 1517, Tetzel was trying to raise money for the ongoing construction of St. Peter’s Basilica and it is believed that Martin Luther was inspired to write his Ninety-Five Theses, in part, due to Tetzel’s actions during this period of time.[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel
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Good thing Tetzel wasn’t a pope!
 
Reformed said:
PJohn or Johann Tetzel (1465 – 11 August 1519) was a German Dominican preacher remembered for selling indulgences and for speaking the couplet “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.”[1] Tetzel even went as far as creating a chart that listed a price for each type of sin. In 1517, Tetzel was trying to raise money for the ongoing construction of St. Peter’s Basilica and it is believed that Martin Luther was inspired to write his Ninety-Five Theses, in part, due to Tetzel’s actions during this period of time.[2]
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James Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Lonnie Frisbee, Tony Alamo, Oral Roberts, Peter Popoff, Mike Warnke, Robert Tilton, Douglas Goodman, Ted Haggard, Kenneth Copland, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn and each and every one of thousands of TV and radio hucksters selling “the Lord’s blessings” in exchange for your “love gift” of cash. So, God created this? If He inspired Luther, He opened the door to the biggest frauds in human history.

Perhaps the Lord did inspire Luther, because, 500 years later, his disobedience has caused the largest Catholic “Reversion” yet.
 
cfrancis said:
Good thing Tetzel wasn’t a pope!
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I thought Tetzel reported to Pope Leo X? I think Luther originally thought Tetzel was a rouge Priest too. Didn’t everyone conclude that Tetzel was sent out by Pope Leo X to generate revenue?

Tetzel was born in Pirna, Saxony, and studied theology and philosophy at the university of his native city. He entered the Dominican order in 1489, achieved some success as a preacher, and was in 1502 commissioned by the pope to preach the jubilee indulgence, which he did throughout his life. In 1509 he was made an inquisitor, and in 1517 Pope Leo X made him commissioner of indulgences for all Germany. -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel
 
po18guy said:
James Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Lonnie Frisbee, Tony Alamo, Oral Roberts, Peter Popoff, Mike Warnke, Robert Tilton, Douglas Goodman, Ted Haggard, Kenneth Copland, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn and each and every one of thousands of TV and radio hucksters selling “the Lord’s blessings” in exchange for your “love gift” of cash. So, God created this? If He inspired Luther, He opened the door to the biggest frauds in human history.

So, you have Tetzel 500 years ago. When didi the church ever teach what he did? It did not. Your point?
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You will find out that those men did not represent the Protestant Reformers, nor did they embrace Reformed Theology. You really can’t lump all Protestants together as one. There is a remnant within Protestantism too. 🙂
 
Reformed said:
You will find out that those men did not represent the Protestant Reformers, nor did they embrace Reformed Theology. You really can’t lump all Protestants together as one. There is a remnant within Protestantism too. 🙂
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Sadly, it is a remnant of error and disobedience. But, Luther made it all possible.
 
po18guy said:
Sadly, it is a remnant of error and disobedience. But, Luther made it all possible.
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Nah. There have always been troublemakers. Luther’s main advantage was the printing press.

Luther is a complex creature. Some of his writing is sublime. And he sure was smart. One of the most gifted Scripture scholars of his day.

And he sure was right about the corruption in the Church. Nevertheless, as you pointed out up-thread (I think it was you), reform DID come in the Church, and it came FROM within.
 
mercygate said:
Nah. There have always been troublemakers. Luther’s main advantage was the printing press.

Luther is a complex creature. Some of his writing is sublime. And he sure was smart. One of the most gifted Scripture scholars of his day.

And he sure was right about the corruption in the Church. Nevertheless, as you pointed out up-thread (I think it was you), reform DID come in the Church, and it came FROM within.
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I don’t think the Reformation would have happened without the printing press.
 
sambos671 said:
I don’t think the Reformation would have happened without the printing press.
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LOL… you guys don’t see God as completely sovereign, do you? 🤷 Who enabled the inventor to invent the printing press in the first place? Are you guys implying that the laity should have never had access to the Bible in their own language in the first place? :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
mercygate said:
Nah. There have always been troublemakers. Luther’s main advantage was the printing press.

Luther is a complex creature. Some of his writing is sublime. And he sure was smart. One of the most gifted Scripture scholars of his day.

And he sure was right about the corruption in the Church. Nevertheless, as you pointed out up-thread (I think it was you), reform DID come in the Church, and it came FROM within.
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Saint John of the Cross and Saint Teresa of Avila were part of the Catholic Reformation that began long before Luther. And both suffered greatly, while remaining obedient and faithful. Luther was egotistical and impatient. And, have you read his writings on the Jews? Absolutely Horrifying. Hitler must have loved it.
 
po18guy said:
Saint John of the Cross and Saint Teresa of Avila were part of the Catholic Reformation that began long before Luther. And both suffered greatly, while remaining obedient and faithful. Luther was egotistical and impatient. And, have you read his writings on the Jews? Absolutely Horrifying. Hitler must have loved it.
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Get your eyes off of Luther and refocus it on the Bible. 🙂
 
Reformed said:
LOL… you guys don’t see God as completely sovereign, do you? 🤷 Who enabled the inventor to invent the printing press in the first place? Are you guys implying that the laity should have never had access to the Bible in their own language in the first place? :eek: :eek: :eek:
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Who created Hitler and Stalin? Who created the ovens? Who lead God’s chosen into the showers?
 
po18guy said:
Who created Hitler and Stalin? Who created the ovens? Who lead God’s chosen into the showers?
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God created Adam and Eve and God said it is very good!

Sin entered this world through one act of disobedience, our federal head and representative. Blame it on Adam and Eve and not God if you want a scapegoat. 😦 . Therer is another scapegoat you know. 👍
 
Reformed said:
You will find out that those men did not represent the Protestant Reformers, nor did they embrace Reformed Theology. You really can’t lump all Protestants together as one. There is a remnant within Protestantism too. 🙂
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I would hope you take to heart your own words.

BTW, some good reading on both Luther and Tetzel.
 
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