Sacred Oral and Written Tradition

[twb1621]

The one holy Catholic Apostolic Church has only two types of authority:
An Outline of Church Authority
"…I. Temporal Authority
The temporal authority of the Church is always fallible, never infallible.
The temporal authority of the Church involves decisions, not teachings, and rules, not moral law. The temporal authority of the Church gives the Bishops and the Pope the authority to rule over the Church, to make decisions and rules concerning practical matters, and to govern the people of God.
The temporal authority of the Church includes the authority to govern all nations and governments, and society in general. In the world today, the Church has no real power over nations, governments, and secular society. Even so, God himself did truly give the Church the authority over all of God’s people, including non-Catholics, non-Christians, and non-believers. For all people on earth belong to God and He has given His Church full authority over all His people.
Many persons in the world do not acknowledge that the Church has any authority over them. These persons think that the Catholic Church only has authority over Catholics. They view each church and each religion as separate and autonomous. But such is not the view of Almighty God. “For all the earth is mine.” (Ex 19:5).
In the present time, the Church has wisely chosen not to attempt to bring all persons under her rule. However, the truth should be known that in God’s plan for Creation, the Church has the authority to rule over all persons and nations and governments. For Christ is the Head of the Church, and all things were patterned after Christ, created through Him, for Him, and in Him. Therefore, in truth, Christ and His Body the Church have authority over all persons, nations and governments.

II. Spiritual Authority, also called the Magisterium
The Magisterium is the ability and authority of the Church to teach the truths found in the Deposit of Faith. The Deposit of Faith consists solely of Tradition and Scripture. The Deposit of Faith is Divine Revelation from God. Everything taught by Tradition or Scripture is entirely true and infallible.
The Magisterium is divided into the infallible Sacred Magisterium and the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium.
A. The Sacred Magisterium
Everything taught under the ability and authority of the Sacred Magisterium is entirely true and infallible. The Sacred Magisterium can never be exercised under any circumstances whatsoever apart from the Pope. The Sacred Magisterium can be exercised in any of three ways.

1. Papal Infallibility
   The Pope has, in and of himself, by virtue of his office, all three Charisms of the Sacred Magisterium. Therefore, the Pope can exercise the Sacred Magisterium without the participation of any of the Bishops or members of the faithful. The criteria under which the Pope exercises Papal Infallibility are five, as defined and taught by the First and Second Vatican Councils.
2. Ecumenical Councils, and any similar gatherings of the body of Bishops with the Pope.
   Such gatherings can be in one place and time, or they can be gatherings distributed, in one manner or another, over place and time. A gathering by communication over distance would be sufficient. Such gatherings do not need to be called ‘Councils’ or ‘Ecumenical Councils’ in order to exercise the Sacred Magisterium. However, all such gatherings must occur under the authority, teaching, and guidance of the Pope. No matter how many Bishops gather together, and no matter what they say, the Bishops cannot exercise the Sacred Magisterium apart from the Pope. For the Pope has a special Charism from God to oversee the Bishops whenever they exercise the Sacred Magisterium. Without such oversight, the Bishops cannot exercise any type of infallibility under the Magisterium.
   It is not necessary for every Bishop to participate in order for a such a gathering to exercise the Sacred Magisterium. However, the body of Bishops must be sufficiently represented. A gathering of local Bishops from only one nation or one area would not be representative of the body of Bishops. In recent times, the College of Cardinals has become representative of the body of Bishops dispersed throughout the world. Therefore, if the Cardinals are gathered together under the authority, teaching, and guidance of the Pope, such a gathering would be sufficient to exercise the Sacred Magisterium.
   The infallible teachings of the document Evangelium Vitae are examples of the exercise of the Sacred Magisterium by a gathering other than an Ecumenical Council…"

catholicplanet.com/TSM/outline-Church-authority.htm

 

[RobGentner]

I believe the current user of the login is a “she”, but don’t tell anyone.

Some of us figured out a long time ago it is a “group” or a husband & wife team. Hard for one person to be so thickheaded! I am surprised you noticed also!

 

[RobGentner]

It was three years in Seminary that solidified my Catholic faith.

It shows!

I believe the current user of the login is a “she”, but don’t tell anyone.

A couple of us have been discussing that. We think it is a Group or a Husband Wife team. I am surprised that you also noticed."ehh: Impressed and surprised.

You have been fighting with JUSTASKING4 :banghead: for a couple of years?:bigyikes: You aren’t HUMAN! You must be a Saint!

The "first posting disappeared, I retyped it and it "appeared. I can’t deleate either one of them!

 

[guanophore]

Your right. I have to laugh to think that someone here off the top of their head would be able to give some of the offical teachings and examples on this…

It might help if you could make up your mind, if you want official teaching, or “something off the top of your head”.

You criticize that it does not exist, then when you are given examples you ignore them. You want official, but you ask for “off the top”. I think you are not really interesting in learning at all, but finding fault.

96 sounded great. 2 different things–

No. Two strands of the same revelation. They are both letters, some written on papyrus, some written on hearts.

Can it be said then that the Catholic church in each generation believes differently than the previous one?

Those who do not hold fast to what was delivered by the Apostles have departed from the faith. Sadly I admit that there are many such “Catholics”.

It is a sacred duty to guard that which has been entrusted (paradosis).

I’m not aware of any Scriptural support for this. When was this first introduced?

Your inability to perceive the Truth in the Scriptures does not mean it is not there. Jesus “introduced” it.

The Teaching Authority was appointed by Christ when Peter recognized who He was. Jesus promised him the keys to the kingdom. He promised to build His Church upon this Rock. Before He ascended, He transferred HIs authority, given to Him by the father, to the Apostles. At that time He promised to preserve them from error.

If i asked a 100 knowledgeable catholics would they all agree on what Sacred Tradition is?

What has that to do with anything? Sacred Tradition is defined by God, not by any number of people, however knowledgeable.

How can this be if the church is constantly changing?

This question does not make any sense. I challenged you with the following:

If you wish to reduce the teaching of Jesus to a “list”, then here is the place to start:

Justasking4, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes".

Are you dodging?

Do you understand anything about “body”? Have you taken a basic biology course? Do you know that everything a body becomes is present at birth? Do you realize that a body constantly adapts to the environment?

It was not a "fluke’ that paul compared the Church to a “body”. Paul experienced a revelation from God that all was contained at the beginning, yet the Body adapts to the conditions.

So, why did you fail to produce the “list”?

No problem. One place would be Colossians 3:8-4:2 is one of a number of places where the “letter i.e. Word” is focused as a list:

Hope this helps-----

It does not. This passage does nothing to explain how justasking2 is a living letter.

 

[RobGentner]

Your right. I have to laugh to think that someone here off the top of their head would be able to give some of the offical teachings and examples on this…
**Why? I did. I gave you the Official Catholic thinking on Oral and Written Sacred Tradition as I understand it. You don’t actually think I spend time looking up things for you do you? :extrahappy: ******

96 sounded great. 2 different things-- Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

If you liked that you will love these papal encyclicals:
Leo XIII (Nov 18, 1893) Providentissimus Deus (The Most Provident God)
Benedict XV (Sept 15, 1920) Spiritus Paraclitus (The Paraclete Spirit)
Pius XII (Sept 30, 1943) Divino Afflante Spiritu (Under the Inspiration of the Divine Spirit)
John Paul II 1996 Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences
Pius XII 1950 encyclical Humani Generis
St. Pius X,encyclical Pascendi (Sept 8, 1907)
St. Pius X, encyclical Lamentabili (July 3, 1907)
Read them and get back with me!

Can it be said then that the Catholic church in each generation believes differently than the previous one?

Sure why not? Would it be true? Nope!

I’m not aware of any Scriptural support for this. When was this first introduced?

Liar, liar, pants on fire! “Thou are peter” spoken around 33AD remained Oral tradition until written in the NT 90Ad? But who cares? We all know it is true even you!

If i asked a 100 knowledgeable catholics would they all agree on what Sacred Tradition is?
Boy, That would be hard to say off the top of my head so I conducted a test. It was hard to actually judge on their knowledgeability.Except the last 5%. My results are below:

10 % said it was oral things taught to us by God
10 % said it was written things taught to us by God
45% said Sacred Tradition is a Technical theological term primarily used in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions, to refer to the fundamental basis of church authority. They also said that the term refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ’s revelation, and is passed forward to successive generations in two different forms, Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (apostolic succession).

Of that 45% over 90% of them are converts to the faith.
5% said what the heck is Sacred Tradition? Now these guys were mostly an unnamed state where mose peoples names are two part like Billy-bob or sammy-lou. the unusual thing is most of them are related even before they ger married. Plus DNA testing are normally identical. In there defense there aren’t many catholics in their area. Mostly Protestants!

guanophore:

However, if you would like to give it a try, here is a start:“Justasking4, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes”.

Another easy one thanks. Because the CC says so! Oh, are most of your relatives related?

God Bless!

 

[RobGentner]

RobGentner:
In case you wondered the other 30% said let JustAsking4 ask herself! I am also wondering is she will deny her relatives are related. She denys everything else that is so obviously true!

**
WE BREAK FOR AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT MESSAGE **

usccb.org/prolife/Rigali-Murphy-Joint-Statement.pdf

You may now resume. Thank you !

 

[twb1621]

Your right. I have to laugh to think that someone here off the top of their head would be able to give some of the offical teachings and examples on this…
You have shown an obvious disinterest not so much that you can’t see but that your pride is more important to you. If you were at least devoted in your heart to your beliefs, you would have recognized;
if Sacred Scripture in fact came from the same source as Sacred Tradition, but three hundred + years later, it stands as proof that there is sacred tradition.
Seeing the evidence that in the gospel it is stated that even with the written word, it in itself is not nearly all that exists in Christ’s teachings, there is no way to coninue in denying the truth.And your denial with your interpretation of scripture to deny other parts of scripture voids your very devotion.

96 sounded great. 2 different things-- Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
again, it is your interpretation that you find scripture against scripture. Seamingly more so to feed your self pride and ego at this point.

Can it be said then that the Catholic church in each generation believes differently than the previous one?

The Catholic Church has stood solid in the devotion of Christ’s teachings as doctrine for 2000 years. Based on your beliefs, how many times has your faith been seperated from that with excerpts of the bible removed and others changed 1500 years after the crucefixion, do you know?
IF you believe that the gospel is the word of our Lord, you should be interested in learning the truth instead of accepting some but not all of scripture which leads to the enlightenment of ALL that is offered.

I’m not aware of any Scriptural support for this. When was this first introduced?

same answer as above.

If i asked a 100 knowledgeable catholics would they all agree on what Sacred Tradition is?
Its interesting that you never went back to find the answers in the other thread to all your issues. That says in itself you don’t care to find out.

How can this be if the church is constantly changing?

Again, it doesn’t change doctrine, going through all history of Christianity for 2000 years that has never changed, only been further enlightened and supported and Christ’s word taught and enforced with the very scriptures you have remaining from the original bibles although some corrupted in interpretation for the last 1500 years. By the way, even Luther before his death admitted sola Scriputa was wrong and that it leaves any “milkmaid” the idea she can give the Bible her own interpretations and start her own “religion”. If you look at your history answer me as to whose faith keeps changing even after the founder admitted he was wrong. You’re welcome to look that up also. Now if you honestly want answers that you can research on your own to prove these things to yourself, by all means ask away, but if you are going to claim knowledge and devotion to the gospel, then you will have to choose to believe in the entire gospel or deny all of it. Even Jesus pointed out you can’t have it both ways. The Word of God is not flexible.

 

[RobGentner]

Hi twb,:tiphat:

You misunderstand! The group of people that use the screen name JustAsking really don’t care what we think.:dts: It is a game to them. They come here ask their questions, get answers, if they can’t find fault in the answer, they ignore it, later they leave, then come back and ask the same questions.:yawn: It has happened over and over again. Some of the guys at the Secret Catholic meeting last night said they had set JA4 on their ignore list. (Yea, I noticed you didn’t attend. Were you at Bingo? ) I said I wouldn’t because they sometimes are funny.:dancing: Demanding things like: Llists of our Sacred Oral Traditions or copies of our Sacred Written Traditions. Now where else but a comedy club could you get entertainment like tha?:extrahappy: . And this is for free!

Come on, Play the game with them! Give them silly answers to their silly questions. We will all laugh with you! Don’t waste the research, unless you are doing it for personal growth, like I said it is wasted.

God Bless

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore
I believe the current user of the login is a “she”, but don’t tell anyone.

RobGentner
Some of us figured out a long time ago it is a “group” or a husband & wife team. Hard for one person to be so thickheaded! I am surprised you noticed also!

View attachment 4394

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4339465]It might help if you could make up your mind, if you want official teaching, or “something off the top of your head”.

I prefer offical Catholic teachings that can be traced if possible. If i can’t get that then i will have to go with second best which is usually what happens here i.e. what catholics think the church offically teaches.

You criticize that it does not exist, then when you are given examples you ignore them. You want official, but you ask for “off the top”. I think you are not really interesting in learning at all, but finding fault.

Were all here to learn. I know this is difficult for catholics since they have heard about it for so long and it sounds great but when asked for support for it specifically its not be had…

No. Two strands of the same revelation. They are both letters, some written on papyrus, some written on hearts.

What exactly is written on the heart? Where does the oral teachings of the apostles come in?

Those who do not hold fast to what was delivered by the Apostles have departed from the faith. Sadly I admit that there are many such “Catholics”.

If a person accepts things not taught by the apostles have they departed from the faith?

It is a sacred duty to guard that which has been entrusted (paradosis).

What exactly was Paul referring to?

Your inability to perceive the Truth in the Scriptures does not mean it is not there. Jesus “introduced” it.

I know the Scriptures and that is why its always important to see if catholic teachings are truly grounded in the Scriptures. Sadly in many cases its lacking or nonexistent.

The Teaching Authority was appointed by Christ when Peter recognized who He was. Jesus promised him the keys to the kingdom. He promised to build His Church upon this Rock. Before He ascended, He transferred HIs authority, given to Him by the father, to the Apostles. At that time He promised to preserve them from error.

How i wish this was true. The facts of history show otherwise as i have continually demonstrated.

What has that to do with anything? Sacred Tradition is defined by God, not by any number of people, however knowledgeable.

Where then has God defined Sacred Tradiiton?

This question does not make any sense. I challenged you with the following:

If you wish to reduce the teaching of Jesus to a “list”, then here is the place to start:

There are many “lists” in the NT that reflect the teachings of Christ.

Justasking4, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes".

Are you dodging?

No

Do you understand anything about “body”? Have you taken a basic biology course? Do you know that everything a body becomes is present at birth? Do you realize that a body constantly adapts to the environment?

OK

It was not a "fluke’ that paul compared the Church to a “body”. Paul experienced a revelation from God that all was contained at the beginning, yet the Body adapts to the conditions.

The body may adapt but a healthy body stays true to core heathy principles. That has not been true in the catholic church.

So, why did you fail to produce the “list”?

I just gave you a lsit from Colossians 3. We can go into the details sometime if you like.

It does not. This passage does nothing to explain how justasking2 is a living letter.

Lets define the terms first. How has your church offically defined the term “living letter”? This would greatly help our discussions. Thanks----

 

[justasking4]

RobGentner:
View attachment 4395

 

[guanophore]

I prefer offical Catholic teachings that can be traced if possible.

If that is true, why do you keep ignoring quotes from the Catechism, as if they did not exist?

Were all here to learn. I know this is difficult for catholics since they have heard about it for so long and it sounds great but when asked for support for it specifically its not be had…

This is true, ja4. I will remind you of what I have told you many times. It is likely impossible for a human being to learn about something when they are convinced that it does not exist. It is called denial. This human defense prevents us from seeing what is right in front of our eyes.

Since you have stated that you firmly believe there is no such thing as Sacred Tradition,a nd that it is all “speculations of men”, it is probably impossible for you to “see” it. Also, the Traditions is handed down (paradosis) from the faithful to the faithful.

Rom 1:17
“…God is revealed through faith for faith…”

Since you lack this faith, you will be unable to receive it.

What exactly is written on the heart? Where does the oral teachings of the apostles come in?

What is written on the heart, the living letter, are the Traditions (Holy way of life) taught by the Apostles. thsi lifestyle (living and thinking in a Christlike manner) is called in the NT “The Way”.

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

2 Cor 3:2-3
" You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; 3 and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."

This is Sacred Tradition, the Spirit of the Living God manifest in the Church.

1 Thess 2:13-14

" We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers." 1 Thess 2:13-14

Sacred Tradition is God’s Word at work in the Church.

If a person accepts things not taught by the apostles have they departed from the faith?

Not necessarily. I accept the theory of relativity, for example.

What exactly was Paul referring to?

Acts 2:41-42
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

The Apostles’ teaching, not all of which later became part of the NT, fellowship (how people are to behave when gathered), the breaking of the bread (Divine Liturgy) and prayers (only a few of which were recorded in the NT.

I know the Scriptures and that is why its always important to see if catholic teachings are truly grounded in the Scriptures. Sadly in many cases its lacking or nonexistent.

I understand that you cannot “see” these things in the scripture. One must be enabled to do so by the HS, and since you already have determined that they don’t exist, it is likely you will continue to believe that, regardless of what you are taught.

The Apostolic faith, unlike the Protesant religions, is not a “religion of the book”. All of the teachings come to us from Jesus HImself, prior to a word of the NT being written. While the NT reflects our faith, it is not the Source of it.

Where then has God defined Sacred Tradiiton?

It would be best if you can start with the portion that you already have in front of you. When you can understand that your Bible is from Sacred Tradition, it might be possible for you to move on to other things.

There are many “lists” in the NT that reflect the teachings of Christ.

This is true, and lists of Sacred Tradition have also been generated for you that reflect the teachings of Christ. Somehow, it does not seem to help you.

No (not dodging)

Then answer the question! Give us a “list” of how Justasking4, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.

This is the official Catholic definition of Sacred Tradition that you have rejected. Instead of accepting it, you insist on having a “list”. So, please show us, using the Catholic definition of Sacred Tradition, how you would generate such a list.

Lets define the terms first. How has your church offically defined the term “living letter”? This would greatly help our discussions. Thanks----

The Catholic Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.

This is the contents of the living letter.

 

[mackbrislawn]

You have been given numerous examples, some of which even you hold to, such as the fact (not opinion) that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. To name all of them would take up more space than this website can handle, and frankly I haven’t got the time. Do your own homework.

Hi Pixie! For Justasking, another tradition is the traditional teaching of the church that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

Later on, tradition gives us what that church eventually decided as to what writings, of many, actually were the teachings of the apostles, ie, tradition give us the table of contents of the bible.

 

[twb1621]

RobGentner:
I see, well that makes sense everything you mentioned. As far as the secret meeting goes, I didn’t know about that or I would have attended for sure. Count me in when the next one comes up if you don’t mind.

By the way, I noticed a few days ago that justasking4 never rebutes my responses to her and him so I imagined early on there was no genuine interest, just the games.
Thats something they will have to deal with sooner or later, one way or another.

 

[twb1621]

QUOTE=RobGentner

I see, well that makes sense everything you mentioned. As far as the secret meeting goes, I didn’t know about that or I would have attended for sure. Count me in when the next one comes up if you don’t mind.

By the way, I noticed a few days ago that justasking4 never rebutes my responses to her and him (or whatever) so I imagined early on there was no genuine interest, just the games.
Thats something they will have to deal with sooner or later, one way or another.

 

[guanophore]

By the way, I noticed a few days ago that justasking4 never rebutes my responses to her and him (or whatever) so I imagined early on there was no genuine interest, just the games.
Thats something they will have to deal with sooner or later, one way or another.

I think the answers to your questions are not on the “list”.

 

[twb1621]

View attachment 4394

you say you know scripture yet you discard all that verifies the information about the Catholic Church.

Do you know this verse and what spin can you put on it?

Scripture is not necessarily an EXHAUSTIVE REVELATION. All that is meant by this is that God has decided not to reveal everything to us. However, what God has revealed to us in His word is inerrant truth.

in order for you to stand by this, you must accept the following as the word of Our Lord;
15
"…I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
16
They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
17
Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
18
As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
19
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” John 17: 15-23

 

[RobGentner]

RobGentner[/COLOR:

I see, well that makes sense everything you mentioned. As far as the secret meeting goes, I didn’t know about that or I would have attended for sure. Count me in when the next one comes up if you don’t mind.

HI twb , :tiphat:

We have them every night but I can’t tell you where or when. The protestants would want to come also! They always want what we have. They borrow, and borrow. They have nothing of their own. :imsorry: Why we lent them our Official church documents, to include our bible, until they could write their own. :aok: They doen’t even have any Sacred Oral or Written Traditions of their own, yet. We started that right after Jesus left. They have been around over 300 or 400 years and not one Sacred writing! Anyway we lent them ours! Were they happy? NO, they wrote all over ours! They even changed words, and worse the meanings!. :crying: What nerve!

By the way, I noticed a few days ago that justasking4 never rebutes my responses to her and him (or whatever) so I imagined early on there was no genuine interest, just the games.
Thats something they will have to deal with sooner or later, one way or another.

Not according to guanophore, He said not in over 2 years! THEY (better then he/she/whatever) never do. They come back and ask the same 20 or 25 questions. Over and over again and again!

 

[justasking4]

mackbrislawn;4340691]Hi Pixie! For Justasking, another tradition is the traditional teaching of the church that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

Where does the Catholic church say that that the public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle and says this is a “tradition”?

Later on, tradition gives us what that church eventually decided as to what writings, of many, actually were the teachings of the apostles, ie, tradition give us the table of contents of the bible.

How did “tradiition” work to come up with the table of contents of the Bible?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Where does the Catholic church say that that the public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle and says this is a “tradition”?