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justasking4
Guest
I would agree he did not taste death even though he was a sinner. He would be an example of the exception to the rule.
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mercygate
Guest
So there is an exception to the rule.
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guanophore
Guest
Please explain why He did not. Please back up your view with teh scriptures.
No, ja4. It is wrong for you to misrepresent what others believe. If you don’t remember or have not studied the posts from previous threads where the ja4 login was used, please do so. No person who has received the Apostolic faith will suggest that Mary was ever “kept from” sinning. On the contrary, we believe that she chose not to sin, just like all of us are expected to do.
The problem is that you are bearing false witness against your neighbor, which is a violation of the Holy Commandment. You will be held accountable by God for this.
No, ja4. Something is wrong with your soteriology. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. No sinners can enter heaven. Only that which is clean may enter. Elijah was taken up because He was clean. He is a saint, not a sinner.
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justasking4
Guest
Under certain unique circumstances there would be. In these exceptional cases we have the testimony of the Scriptures. We don’t have that with Mary being without sin nor is there evidence in Scripture that she was assumed into heaven.
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RobGentner
Guest
But, Jesus’ chuch says it is so therefore it is so! Oh, Acts 1:26 said: “Lord…”, How do we know they prayed to Jesus?Are you interpreting again? What did we tell you about that? :tsktsk: Since the early church prayed to Mary doesn’t that count?
I am sorry, we have talked about it. We know what it would mean to you and wish you could have eternal salvation with us.
But until you are willing to accept Mary as sinless and born without sin and that we are able to pray to her for her help. We will not be able to indorse you for membership in the real Church.:bigyikes: Sorry!
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justasking4
Guest
It does not say. I’m not making the claim, Catholics who believe she was without sin say these things and its up to them to support it if they want to be justified in their belief. So far it has never been demonstrated. Just asserted.
I have seen many times the idea that she was kept from sinning like a person who was kept from falling into a pit. I think Catholic apologist Jimmy Atkin has said something like as Jerry Mattics who was also a Catholic apologist not to mention some posters.
You need to take a break and study the Scriptures. This is an embarrassing comment….
In any of the accounts that the Scriptures have of him is there anything in them that should make us think he was a perfect man who never sinned in thought or deed? Does anyone in the NT attest to this?
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justasking4
Guest
Are you saying that Catholic beliefs about Mary are essential for salvation?
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mercygate
Guest
When did the New Testament Church stop being the Church? It’s not like there is no paper trail.Is the “early church” the same as the church that we see in the NT? For example in Acts do we see anyone praying to Mary?
Do we see any exhortation in the letters for Christians to pray to her?
Are you saying that Catholic beliefs about Mary are essential for salvation?
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justasking4
Guest
The structure and doctrines of the NT church are different than the doctrines and practices of the Catholic church. There is some connection between the 2 but they are not the same.
How about the question – are beliefs about Mary are essential for salvation?
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AshleyBelle
Guest
How do you connect two completely different subjects? How does praying to Mary connect to what we believe about Salvation?
Of course our beliefs about Mary are not essential for our salvation!
I would argue that our beliefs about Mary help us UNDERSTAND our relationship to Christ, whom is essential for salvation. She teaches us and reveals to us what it means to be a perfect follower, obedient and faithful to our Lord!
As all the saints, teach us through their holiness, how to strive for holiness in our own lives.
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guanophore
Guest
I agree, it is not possible to demonstrate this to a person who has such a narrow acceptance of the evidence.
You misunderstood. They were all talking about original sin. None of us has any choice about original sin. It is our birth condition.
We all have to be cleansed from original sin in order to get into a right relationship with God. Most of us are cleansed at Baptism. Mary was cleansed at conception. Infants and fertilized eggs don’t choose. The choice is made for them.
It is no my intention to embarrass you, ja4. However, bearing false witness against your neighbor is a serious matter.
I think your understanding of soteriology is gravely deficient. I would have thought that you were in agreement with the Catholic Church that no one is perfect enough to enter heaven. If there were, the sacrifice of Christ would not be needed. The fact that sinners are not allowed in heaven does not equate to the fact taht they never sinned.
I can understand why it would seem that way to you, since you are missing about 1900 years of history.
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RobGentner
Guest
Is the “early church” the same as the church that we see in the NT? For example in Acts do we see anyone praying to Mary?
JA4, It isn’t a TV. We can’t see anything there.
Do we see any exhortation in the letters for Christians to pray to her?
Well, Yea! :yup:
Here are just a few: Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70] ; Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80] ;
Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]; Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]; ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189] ;The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210] ;The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300];
Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361] ; The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377] Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387] ; Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]
Are you saying that Catholic beliefs about Mary are essential for salvation?
No of course not! Don’t be a silly goose, dear! You are so funny! :bounce: I told you before, yiou don’t have to believe in Mary to be saved. But you do to become a member of the real church!
What I am saying is that I personally don’t see how you are going to obtain the graces of the CC needed for your salvation, if you don’t accept Mary and treat her with the respect the Mother of Jesus. :tsktsk: I mean after all, He is the head of the real church and we are his body.
Tell the rest of you, I love all of you! :flowers:
God Bless
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RobGentner
Guest
It does not say. I’m not making the claim, Catholics who believe she was without sin say these things and its up to them to support it if they want to be justified in their belief. So far it has never been demonstrated. Just asserted.
Hmmm, I thought that only protestants had to be justified?
When did the Church say we had to be justfied ourselves? We made that rule for those who do not have a clear grasp of “basic Christianity” e.g. Protestants!
You, unfortunately, not having infalliability through the grace of the HS, are liable to fall for every whiff of false doctrine. :imsorry: Such as often proved to be the case, when New Age Spiritualities and Secular Humanistic attitudes about the Bible and christian ethics crept into all your counterfeit christian type churches.
Catholic apologetics is a defense developed against this threat to the real church. It does this using a sanctification process by which real christians are enabled to cultivate a mature faith which allos us to love God with our minds as well as our hearts
Being the true church we are ready to give a defense for what we believe! (1 Pet 3:15) But, we don’t need to be justified. That happended 2,000 years ago! That is required of you New Age thinkers, as you twist the real message of Jesus trying to find that which the CC always has taught.
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I have seen many times the idea that she was kept from sinning like a person who was kept from falling into a pit. I think Catholic apologist Jimmy Atkin has said something like as Jerry Mattics who was also a Catholic apologist not to mention some posters. **
She was full of grace, she didn’t need to be kept from falling. She never intented to sin. The devil didn’t tempt her did he? What is your reference for that? Would her Son had allowed her to be tested by the devil?
You need to take a break and study the Scriptures. This is an embarrassing comment….
Goodness, did someone call you a heretic again?SIGH! I apologize for them if they did!
In any of the accounts that the Scriptures have of him is there anything in them that should make us think he was a perfect man who never sinned in thought or deed? Does anyone in the NT attest to this?
Did anyone ever say Elijah was a perfect man who never sinned in thought or deed?
I am not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify?
Are you rewriting the NT again? Did God reveal to you that Elihah was a sinner? Where is that in the OT or the NT? Is it in your own mind? Do you add food coloring to the jello to make it blood red before you nail it to your wailing wall?
Do you claim to know and understand what your church teaches perfectly? Do you claim to obey perfectly?
Do you realize that some people say you are bearing false witness to the testament of Jesus? :bigyikes: I told them JA4 didn’t mean it and was only playing. I said she/he/they don’t believe half of what they say! So you apologize! :tsktsk:
I love you, :flowers: you silly goose! If you ever get a chance to get away from the “others” call the national hotline. We can hide you. You will be safe! Don’t worry there are catholics here ready to help you. Just call! Your soul depends on it!
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twb1621
Guest
No not uncomfortable, but what you don’t realize is that scripture never conflicts with itself and any time you’re arguing scripture that has been interpreted against scripture that completely spells out what it’s intention in teaching means, it is a clear sign your interpretation is wrong. You have disregarded the verses that spell out in plan language what we are to do and accepted only those verses you were taught to accept. We do not expect you to turn around here and claim an epiphany and instantly turn Catholic. We do no more than to provide you the information to go on for yourself and find the Truth. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit. But you are receiving information here that you don’t care to truly find out about and that is sad. I do understand being dedicated to what you have been taught but that does not mean once an adult, you can’t look further. Regardless of your driving force or intention, we pray for you, truly
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justasking4
Guest
If belief in Mary is not necessary then what am to make of these statements:
'O chosen Queen of Heaven! You alone are the refuge of guilty mortals to whom so many a tearful eye, so many a wounded and miserable heart is raised . . . **You, O elect Queen, are the gate of all grace, the door of compassion that has never yet been shut! **
Bl. Henry Suso
Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.
St. Ephrem
**Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys! **
St. Ambrose
God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.
St. Thomas Aquinas
No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.
St. Bonaventure
This is the House of God and the Gate of Heaven.
Genesis 28:17
Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.
St. Bernard
Or this paragraph from Bull Ineffabilis:
"4. This solemnly proclaimed doctrine is expressly termed a “doctrine revealed by God”. Pope Pius IX adds that it must be “firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful”. Consequently, whoever does not make this doctrine his own, or maintains an opinion contrary to it, “is shipwrecked in faith” and “separates himself from Catholic unity”.
If you are “shipwrecked in the faith” you are an apostate and without salvation.
You can find this article at:
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm
We all appreciate you far more than you and your gang will ever know…:extrahappy:
Ditto
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justasking4
Guest
Weren’t these the famous words of the inquisitors…:bigyikes:
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happilycatholic
Guest
What structure and doctrines of the NT? Where do you get your structure and doctrines?
And please, don’t ignore this post.
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justasking4
Guest
The church of the NT knew nothing of the Marian doctrines, Tresaury of Merit or confession to a priest.
In terms of structure the NT church did not demand its leaders to be unmarried, did not have a pope i.e. supreme leader.
They are derived from the Scriptures.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
You mean in your reading of the NT you have not found those things. The only Marian doctrine that isn’t explicitly in Scripture is her Assumption. Given that the Church has the bones of all of the Apostles and one Apostle in particular was taking care of Mary after Jesus ascended into Heaven, and given that Mary is so highly honored in the Church, don’t you think that if Mary’s bones had been left on earth some ancient Church would have them? If God could take Moses, Enoch and Elijah body and soul to Heaven, couldn’t He do the same for his chosen handmaid?
I can show you Scriptures that point to the other Marian doctrines, the “Treasury of Merit” and confession but that would be outside the scope of this thread. Visit the Bible Christian Society and give some of those MP3s a listen. They’re free and well worth your time to listen.
No, but celibacy was recommended by Jesus and Paul both, and it’s been explained to you that this is a discipline in the Latin Rite, and there have been several instances where there are married priests in the Latin Rite.
Have you had a chance to read Jesus, Peter and the Keys? I recommended it to you a while back, I believe. I contains evidence from Scripture, and commentary on those Scriptures from Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant sources that all agree on the primacy of Peter in the early Church.
From *someone’*s personal interpretation of Scriptures, that is.
This is the one issue that made me realize what was wrong with Protestantism. They’re all reading the same book, and yet coming to conflicting and contradictory conclusions about what the book says. God is not the author of confusion, and if you list each and every Protestant doctrine it looks like confusion. For just one example:Baptism - Salvific, not salvific, necessary, not necessary, good for infants, only good for professing believers, by sprinkling, by pouring, by immersion, no water necessary, in the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is an outward sign of an inward change, is a public profession of faith, is how one receives the Holy Spirit, is symbolic.
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twb1621
Guest
You are not understanding what you are reading and what the Church teaches. Of course a person can reach salvation without going through Mary or Going directly to God. But no one can reach salvation dishonoring Mary by denying her the honor due her. Whether you reflect on the commandments or the teachings of Jesus Himself, honoring His mother is most honoring Him. Do you think if you are suppose to honor your father and mother you would be wrong for honoring His? It is because of Him she is honored. He his Worshiped above all without comparison. Every prayer that regards Mary is a prayer asking for her prayers to her son in intersession. All these excerpts refer to her honor as the Mother of God Jesus Christ.
The heart of “The Hail Mary” is the recitation of Gospel verses completed with a request for her to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death”… For her to pray to her Son for us in asking forgiveness and mercy. You have to ask yourself, would Jesus want me to honor His mother out of respect for Him, or would He want us to deny her honor. Hail Holy Queen… Prayer “…Turn then most gracious advocate, thyne eyes of mercy toward us…”
Use you common sense, please. That is not worship, it is honor. There is a difference and your trying in desperation to proove there is something more than what exists.
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