Sacrifice for Sins?

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If the fathers of old used animals for sacrifices and were forgiven, then why did Christ have to do the same was it for forgiveness of sins or to stop blood sacrifices? I had this question asked of me. I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank You Nancy
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
If the fathers of old used animals for sacrifices and were forgiven, then why did Christ have to do the same was it for forgiveness of sins or to stop blood sacrifices? I had this question asked of me. I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank You Nancy
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The Book of Hebrews covers this really well. Here’s how I understand it, and sorry in advance if it’s wrong OT sacrifices were meant for two things: (1) as an act of faith (a faith which would save them when Christ came); and (2) to show the Jews that without blood, there is no atonement of sins. Hebrews 9:22 spells that last point out explicitly.

These sacrifices prefigure Christ. Hebrews 9:20 ties all of this together really beautifully. The author paraphrases Exodus 24:8, but does so in a way that is intentionally almost identical to Christ’s words at the Last Supper. He’s showing that the blood atonement, where Christ offered Himself up on the Cross, is wrapped up in the Last Supper. Imagine if Christ had been murdered in the Massacre of the Innocents - our sins wouldn’t have been forgiven. He had to not just be killed, but be sacrificed. And the only one who could sacrifice Him was Himself, which is why the Gospels are so clear that He laid His life down willingly. Without the Last Supper, the Passion would be meaningless, or at most, mere martyrdom.

So it also prefigures the Sacraments. Hebrews 9:9-10 says that under the OT, it was merely symbolic food, drink, and water. Now, of course, it’s the Eucharist and Baptism.

The atoning sacrifices under the OT “put away” sin. That’s how Samuel describes it in 2 Samuel 12:13. Basically, if you faithfully follow Christ (even though you don’t know Him as Christ, because you’re an OT Jew), you’re saved. But you can’t be saved until Christ died on the Cross… so the sins aren’t actually paid for, they’re just put away until Christ’s death pays for them. It’s a fascinating phrase, because it’s so incredibly foreshadowing.

This is, anyways, the conclusion that my girlfriend, dad, cousin, and I came to after trying to figure out what’s going on with all the atonement stuff. What’re your thoughts on it?
 
Belloc_Fan said:
The Book of Hebrews covers this really well. Here’s how I understand it, and sorry in advance if it’s wrong OT sacrifices were meant for two things: (1) as an act of faith (a faith which would save them when Christ came); and (2) to show the Jews that without blood, there is no atonement of sins. Hebrews 9:22 spells that last point out explicitly.

These sacrifices prefigure Christ. Hebrews 9:20 ties all of this together really beautifully. The author paraphrases Exodus 24:8, but does so in a way that is intentionally almost identical to Christ’s words at the Last Supper. He’s showing that the blood atonement, where Christ offered Himself up on the Cross, is wrapped up in the Last Supper. Imagine if Christ had been murdered in the Massacre of the Innocents - our sins wouldn’t have been forgiven. He had to not just be killed, but be sacrificed. And the only one who could sacrifice Him was Himself, which is why the Gospels are so clear that He laid His life down willingly. Without the Last Supper, the Passion would be meaningless, or at most, mere martyrdom.

So it also prefigures the Sacraments. Hebrews 9:9-10 says that under the OT, it was merely symbolic food, drink, and water. Now, of course, it’s the Eucharist and Baptism.

The atoning sacrifices under the OT “put away” sin. That’s how Samuel describes it in 2 Samuel 12:13. Basically, if you faithfully follow Christ (even though you don’t know Him as Christ, because you’re an OT Jew), you’re saved. But you can’t be saved until Christ died on the Cross… so the sins aren’t actually paid for, they’re just put away until Christ’s death pays for them. It’s a fascinating phrase, because it’s so incredibly foreshadowing.

This is, anyways, the conclusion that my girlfriend, dad, cousin, and I came to after trying to figure out what’s going on with all the atonement stuff. What’re your thoughts on it?
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👍 I think it’s not only great but it could make alot of heads look up.You guy’s did a great job Thank You Very much also I was thinking how it alines with Jesus going to the grave and setting the captives free.Can you enlighten me a little more on the last supper? I do know that Baptism is required to wash away sins and confess you beleive so why the Eucharist?You have Christ for eternal life(salvation) Baptism,(wash away sins) Eucharist? Why so much saving if we are saved by Grace? Love of Christ Nancy
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
Can you enlighten me a little more on the last supper? I do know that Baptism is required to wash away sins and confess you beleive so why the Eucharist?You have Christ for eternal life(salvation) Baptism,(wash away sins) Eucharist? Why so much saving if we are saved by Grace? Love of Christ Nancy
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The saving is by Grace through Baptism, the Eucharist, and so forth. Here’s the best way to explain it: Christ does the work of salvation on the Cross. But He doesn’t do the application of that work - that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. Even Protestants will likely admit this if they think about it. Many Protestants can recall the moment when they were saved. And that moment wasn’t 33 A.D. Even if it’s just “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior,” as some say, you’re still doing something in addition to Jesus’ work - you’re opening your heart (or more precisely, allowing it to be opened supernaturally, by the Holy Spirit) to faith. And without this work of the Holy Spirit, you’d go to Hell, even though Christ died for you on the Cross. Remember, He died for everyone, damned and saved - look at how John 3:16 reads: He came for the world, so those who believe can be saved. Those who believe are only a subset of those He desires will be saved. Christ did His part completely on the Cross. But His part didn’t include making the choice for you to accept Him and follow Him.

So the Holy Spirit applies the benefits that Christ earned for us, and He applies them in various ways. It is through the death of Christ that we are able to be cleansed of our sins, so Christ’s death opens the door for Baptism. The Holy Spirit administers it. The Eucharist is the Passion, in many ways - it’s Jesus’ Body and Blood, offered up to God the Father as atonement for sins. Next time you’re in Mass, read in your missalette (if you have one) what the priest is saying. It’s incredible. He’s asking God the Father to accept the Body and Blood of His Son as the only possible sacrifice for our sins. Anyone who thinks that Catholics teach that we earn our own salvation should listen to what the Mass says.

There are lots of differences between Baptism, Penance, and the Eucharist, and what they’re meant to do. Here’s one aspect:
Baptism cleanses us of original sin, and our sins up to that point. In faith, we humble ourselves before God, and the Holy Spirit cleanses us through the Blood of Christ in the waters of Baptism. It symbolizes death and resurrection with the going down and coming up from the water, because through Baptism we are born again. And this regeneration, unlike the dipping, is more than symbolic. [this is why it doesn’t matter if we dunk or sprinkle - the Holy Spirit working through the water is what’s important, not what we do in the water].

Confession is where we go when we, post-Baptism, cut ourselves off from God’s graces through our sins. There are a lot of verses speaking about Baptism, and a lot speaking about Confession, but only one that I know of that shows the interplay really well. At the Last Supper, when Jesus is washing Peter’s feet, He says:
**John 13:10 **Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
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There are a lot of things going on in this verse, but here are a couple: first, the ceremonial washing, followed by repeated washing of the feet, is a reference to the Old Testament priesthood. Before preparing the atoning sacrifice, the priest was completely bathed. But when he left the Holy of Holies (which he had to do at various points, like to bring in the sacrifice), he had to re-wash his feet before re-entering. So Jesus is making it clear that these are His priests (this is why the Pope addresses all the clergy, worldwide, every Holy Thursday). It’s also tying the Twelve into the Passion, because that’s the sacrifice being offered. But a third layer is that it represents Baptism and Penance. In Baptism, original sin and everything else is washed away. Penance is a simpler process to get rid of the filth that tries to reattach to you when you wander away from the Holy of Holies.

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus. In eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, we’re: (a) partaking in the New Covenant, and accepting His sacrifice as covering for our sings [it’s the New Passover]; (b) becoming united more fully with Christ [John 6:56]; (c) uniting with the Church. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 spells this out pretty plainly. Also, read the second half of John 6, and 1 Corinthians 11 (look at verses 23-28). Jesus says “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you,” and “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” Paul warns that “whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord” and “anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.” For this reason, the Church warns that anyone who is guilty of a mortal sin and who has not gone to Confession is risking damnation when they take the Eucharist.

Christ’s Passion and Resurrection opens the door for Baptism. Without Jesus, Baptism wouldn’t be possible. And Baptism puts us into a special covenental relationship with Jesus. Just like the Old Covenant, this has specific remedies for when you go wrong. Under the old system, it was animal sacrifices. Under the new, it’s spiritual sacrifice, and offering up the once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ. This spiritual sacrifice takes place in Confession and subsequent Reconciliation. With a conscience cleared of mortal sin, you may in good faith partake in the Eucharist to obtain greater union with Christ.

That’s more or less how I understand the interplay.
 
Belloc_Fan said:
Exactly. I think that’s the last part of it for the OT saved: the application of the Passion to the individual. The bit in 1 Peter is very interesting. Scott Hahn’s got a lot on Sheol and the abode of the dead in his talk on Purgatory found here: fisheaters.com/hahnapologetics.html
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I like your site and I will go there more often.You mentioned MISSLETTE? I haven’t herd that word of Missle,used since I was a young girl. I would love to get one but I cannot spend too much as I am on dis.Where can I get a missle? used old ripped? I tryed Amazon,I didn’t see anything there under missle.Any suggestions? I usto love the old songs are they in there to? Nancy:)
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
I like your site and I will go there more often.You mentioned MISSLETTE? I haven’t herd that word of Missle,used since I was a young girl. I would love to get one but I cannot spend too much as I am on dis.Where can I get a missle? used old ripped? I tryed Amazon,I didn’t see anything there under missle.Any suggestions? I usto love the old songs are they in there to? Nancy:)
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Just to clarify, I don’t run Fisheaters - it’s just a pretty helpful site. Actually, there’s a lot of stuff on there that I don’t endorse - the people who run the site disagree with Vatican II and everything afterward. When it comes to that stuff, FE is really in the wrong. But for Catholicism generally, it’s usually a great resource.

The missallette is just the book with the readings for that week’s Mass. A lot of parishes have them in the pews so that people can follow along. You can find an online version here, usccb.org/nab/, or you can probably find something appropriate online or in a Catholic bookstore.

There are places you can get some of the beautiful old songs, though. Again, I imagine most Catholic bookstores have books of them, or you could probably look online. Hope that helps!
 
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