Sacrifice of the Mass

[ComeHome2Rome]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

Hi Christ Bearer,

It wouldn’t taste like skin, but like heart-muscle.

In the many Eucharistic Miracles that have taken place all over the world and through out the centuries: the wine is actual blood and the host a slice of a human heart - both are blood type AB.

Two of the many recorded miracles are:

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy of the 8th Century miracoloeucaristico.eu/

Eucharistic Miracle of Ogden, UT, USA in either the 1980’s or 1990’s - I can’t find a link, but have a friend who lives there & have heard about it from other sources as well.

When we consume the actual Body & Blood of Jesus via the Eucharist, we do so under the appearance (& taste) of Bread and Wine. It is a true miracle, but John 6 confirms that we are called to receive Him physically in this way and via the many miracles that have occurred over the centuries, we know that the Bread & Wine becomes what Jesus said it would become, His true Flesh & true Blood.

 

[KathleenGee]

Curious Seed.

My post #31 towards the end says the Mass will continue until the second coming of Christ. It is taught in the Church that the Mass will be the perpetual sacrifice until the second coming of Christ…

When we stand with the Lord in the great Amen at Mass…we are joining with Him triumph over sin and death in the world. We ourselves may seem so insignificant but with our participation, the Mass as the atonement for sin in the world is the greatest power of good on the earth.

You cannot say the Mass is man made. It is extraordinary and supernatural…no one could create this mystery of the Mass and its power that only comes from Christ at the heavenly altar in communion with the Father and Holy Spirit.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ Bearer

Jesus already gave us the context…remember His many followers prior to the Last Supper?

He told the followers that they would eat of His flesh and blood…they were shocked and most of them fell away. His remaining apostles said…where could they go?..they knew only the Lord could give them eternal life.

So the Lord gave them context, drawing on the ancient Jewish practice of the breaking of the Bread…He held up the bread and said This is My Body. He held up the cup of wine, and He said this is His Blood. So even though the outer form remained, Jesus the Eternal Word through the Holy Spirit transformed the inner form to His very person.

The Last Supper is also the institute of the priesthood.

The Passover, the Day of Atonement, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and then the Ascension were all the necessary parts to enable us to be nourished by Christ in Heaven through the Holy Spirit and His chosen, and consecrated priesthood, separate from the laity.

The old worship in the past involved the sacrifice of animal blood. The new worship today is the Memorial of Jesus Christ, the Breaking of His body and blood for us.

The Memorial is the new form of worship, not man made but as was the Heavenly Father to Moses…instructed not by man, not created or devised by man, but none other by the Lord, His Words…and His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension into heaven.

 

[Luvtosew]

luvtosew,

Does your bible have the old testament in it? Yes

Was Jesus a Jew? Yes

Were the Apostles Jews?** Yes**

Did Jesus teach in the synagouges or Jewish Temples?** Both, in open land, boats,a mountain, houses,where ever he could**

Did the early Christians not meet in the Jewish Temples? The temple was destroyed, and they met in homes in secret and thanks to Constantine he made Christianity the legal religion and built the first temple for them.

Did not Jesus honor the traditions and celebrations of the Jews? Most no, he taught and healed on Sundays, they didn’t wash their hands before eating, said all foods are clean, Jesus was against their traditions.

Did not the jewish prophets foretell Jesus’s coming, the mesiah? Yes

The point here is that Christ came to fullfill the jewish faith. Many Jews did believe Jesus was the true messiah and became followers. Some Jews didnt believe. Most of them had an interest in keeping the old order of things, namely the pharasies and religious leaders.

Yes Christ did come to fullfill the OT, its predictions and prophecies. He did come to save the Jews and many did follow him I agree, but those that didn’t are still Jews.

Jesus never said to completely abandon the laws of God’s chosen people. Therefore yes, the early christian church, which was made up of mostly jews did keep some of the jewish ways of honoring God.

**Jesus said you can’t pour old wine into new wineskins, so he did say the New Covenant superseedes the old. Paul also talked in Romans and Hebrews about it. Right
Jesus didn’t abandom the moral laws no, he expanded on them. **

Im not sure what you mean about trying it both ways. It was always one way. Its not like Jesus came to earth and totally said hey, God made a mistake and the Jews got it all wrong. What he did was let the Jewish leaders know that they were corrupting Gods teachings and was correcting them. Christianity is the fullfilment of the Jewish faith. Have you ever heard of Messeanic Jews who believe Jesus was the messiah but they are still jews.

Jesus said you can’t be double minded and Paul warned on it as well. One can’t follow Moses’s law and Jesus at the same time, as one will not do neither well,
Like building a new house, and keep going back in the old house.

Yes I have heard of Messeanic Jews, they want to keep their customs and believe Jesus is the Messiah, which is wonderful, they are both.

But I’m not Jew, never have been, and I’m Christian.

I’m not saying this in meaning nothing, but is it fair to say that Catholic is really
Messeanic Judaism, since even Jews now days don’t keep passover like the OT days, they keep the days but not the meal and don’t sacrifice animals anymore.

Messeanic Judaism just doesn’t seem right to me, either one is Jew or one is Christian,
but I guess if one wants to keep the Jewish rituals and have the Christian faith that is up to them. I’m not saying if theres a right or wrong way, just trying to understand.

I do thank you and Steve V H, for your wonderful explanations, it has cleared much up for me.

 

[Christ_Bearer]

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Very good and helpful. Here is the link to my new thread… forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8985772#post8985772

 

[jlhargus]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Thoughts?

JL: Eating human flesh and drinking human blood would be repellent to MOST human beings. If the Bread of Life and the blood of the eternal covenant tasted like flesh and blood it would be as repellent. I think most people would regurgitate after first receiving and never take communion again. That’s why many of our Lord’s disciples stopped following him Jn6. Had they known HOW our Lord was really giving His flesh and blood to eat and drink, under the appearance of bread and wine, they would have stayed. This is why our Lord changes the substance of bread and wine to His body and blood. Yet it does not change the appreance of bread and wine, the smell, taste etc… That makes it acceptable instead of repellent.

It isn’t cannibalism since we do not actually metabolize or digest the body and blood of Christ. When the appreance of bread and wine are broken down in the stomach it no longer is the body and blood or Christ.

Jn6:63 it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Those who stopped following Christ thought from a carnal mind instead of from faith or spiritual mind.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread retitled for clarification

 

[Luvtosew]

**The Eucharist is much more than a memorial service using grape juice and crackers. It is a sacrifice and a meal. The sacrifice comes in two forms: 1) us giving our whole selves to Christ and 2) the **continuation of the sacrifice made by Christ of His flesh and blood. The meal is accepting the gift of holy food in the form of the body and blood of Christ

This was on a Catholic website, it says its a continuation, and some have said its
a re-presentation, like something that we do to remember the sacrifice Jesus made.

That is two different things, why would it be called a continuation?

This website

ourcatholicfaith.org/john6.html

 

[jmcrae]

**The Eucharist is much more than a memorial service using grape juice and crackers. It is a sacrifice and a meal. The sacrifice comes in two forms: 1) us giving our whole selves to Christ and 2) the **continuation ****of the sacrifice made by Christ of His flesh and blood. The meal is accepting the gift of holy food in the form of the body and blood of Christ

Christ’s Sacrifice happened at a specific place and time, but it also continues in Eternity, so that all of us who were born afterwards can also partake of its merits. Otherwise, only those who died before it happened could have been saved by it. That is why it is also a “continuation” - the Mass is the unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s eternal Sacrifice for our sins.

 

[Kyrby_Caluna]

The substance (the “what-ness”) of the bread and wine is displaced with the substance (the “what-ness”) of Christ. ******The substances of the bread and wine go to Heaven. This is what it means, to “sacrifice” the bread and the wine on the Altar - it goes to Heaven. ******The priest’s sacrifice of bread and wine is replaced with Christ’s Sacrifice of Himself, which we then eat in obedience to His command, that we must eat and drink His flesh and blood.

Christ never gave us any commandment without also giving us the means to obey it - this is why He gave us the Catholic Mass. Obviously, to participate in a Catholic Mass, though, one must become a Catholic.

---

I made bold the quotation above because it is a HERESY. May the Lord forgive you. God does not accept mere bread and wine as sacrifice for our sins. He has only accepted one sacrifice once and for all – Jesus Christ his Son, our Lord. The Church does not teach that the substance of bread and wine goes to heaven. No! God himself provided his own Son as a sacrifice. That is why, by an awesome mystery, the bread and wine is transubstantiated into the very body and blood of Jesus. There is no transfer here of bread and wine going to heaven and Christ going to earth, There is also no replacement. There is a CHANGE of substance.

You are and idiot and ignorant Catholic!!!

 

[jmcrae]

---

I made bold the quotation above because it is a HERESY. May the Lord forgive you. God does not accept mere bread and wine as sacrifice for our sins.

Of course not. The bread and wine are sacrificed by the priest (not by Christ!!) in thanksgiving. (Eucharistia)

He has only accepted one sacrifice once and for all – Jesus Christ his Son, our Lord.

Christ’s Sacrifice for our sins is made present on the Altar.

God also accepts many kinds of sacrifices from our priests and even from us.

Eucharistic Prayer I says:

Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek.

The Church does not teach that the substance of bread and wine goes to heaven.

Listen again more carefully to the words of Eucharistic Prayer I:
Eucharistic Prayer I:

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.

Clearly, there is an exchange of substances.

 

[Luvtosew]

Christ’s Sacrifice happened at a specific place and time, but it also continues in Eternity, so that all of us who were born afterwards can also partake of its merits. **Otherwise, only those who died before it happened could have been saved by it. That is why it is also a “continuation” **- the Mass is the unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s eternal Sacrifice for our sins.

I bolded the above part, so the CC teaches this, only those who died before calvary could have been saved and that is why its a continuation?

I hope you had poor cathechism like I did and thats not a teaching of the Church.
I remember always thinking the sacrifice was the bread and wine.

Today I know we are re- offering our lives to Jesus for what he did at Calvary for us and giving him praise and worship.

 

[PRmerger]

I bolded the above part, so the CC teaches this, only those who died before calvary could have been saved and that is why its a continuation?

No, Luv.

jmcrae’s point is IF the sacrifice of Christ does not continue in Perpetuity, THEN only those who died before Calvary could have been saved.

Fortunately for you and me, Luv, this is not what is happening.

IF, as you say, the atoning death of Christ, cannot be applied to us today, 2000 years later, then we are in deep, deep trouble!

 

[jmcrae]

I bolded the above part, so the CC teaches this, only those who died before calvary could have been saved and that is why its a continuation?

The Sacrifice of Christ continues on in Eternity so that all may be saved. Yes, this is a teaching of the Church. (Not “for eternity” but “in eternity.” It is an instantaneous moment that remains accessible to all people in all places and at all times.)

I remember always thinking the sacrifice was the bread and wine.

Today I know we are re- offering our lives to Jesus for what he did at Calvary for us and giving him praise and worship.

It’s both.

 

[Luvtosew]

No, Luv.

jmcrae’s point is IF the sacrifice of Christ does not continue in Perpetuity, THEN only those who died before Calvary could have been saved.

Fortunately for you and me, Luv, this is not what is happening.

IF, as you say, the atoning death of Christ, cannot be applied to us today, 2000 years later, then we are in deep, deep trouble!

So now, are you saying, the sacrifice of Christ would still continue in Prepetuity even if the Catholic Church didn’t offer the sacrifice at the Mass? I do believe you are saying that, as according to other posters (some anyway) its just a re presentation,

like if I started an IV on a person and took a video of it , and then I taught a class and verbally re-presented the steps I took to start that IV with the video , it would not mean I actually started another IV.

 

[KathleenGee]

Luvtosew…

In regards to your original question to me, I when I speak of the episcopal vs conciliar models of governing, remember the 12 apostles went out, apostle means ‘to be sent out’…and you have to recall the spreading of Christianity in their geographic locations, different cultures and languages…the bishops appointed by the apostles or in other areas a more conciliar model…but by 100 AD, the episcopal model, the Jewish model, was the one that ‘worked’, two heads are not as workable as one.

Then you had the different jurisdictions of these regions that developed into patriarchs…who oversaw them…and Rome was seen primarily as having the final say on disputes as they came along…and of course, with changing circumstances, new direction and the former dispute settled by Rome, then changed again. Also Rome was the wealthiest church, and it financially and morally supported the emerging churches.

I spoke to my pastor that I wanted a most accurate and balanced book on early church history. The book he recommended is the first book of Church History given to seminarians studying for the priesthood.

Mind you, the development of theology brought forward the science of Christology…so the Early Church Fathers would submit their treatises and theological reflections for the Church to decide, and there are times when every single one had some heretical ideas…but otherwise many others inspired by the Holy Spirit for the universal Church. So our faith is always affirmed by the gathering of people, consecrated souls, who nevertheless represent our faith, and likewise are authorized by God to discern what is of Him and what is for the Church universal.

The understanding of Christ…the truth of Jesus Christ was not until the Council of Nicea in defining that Christ had no beginning or end, that He is of the same substance as the Father and Holy Spirit…that coming about in the mid-300’s, but prior to that, by 100 AD, we had the Apostles Creed.

The text my pastor gave me was, ‘A Concise History of the Catholic Church’, written by Thomas Bokenkotter. It became alot more complicated up to the time of the Protestant Reformation…many events leading for clarification of the Church authority in a changing world, and various voices of Christiandom wanting more of their own jurisdiction in the West.

The problem with the Western Churches wanting their own jurisdiction away from Rome vs the Orthodox is that the Orthodox Church and its churches…local, regional…were founded by the Apostles, witnesses to Christ and likewise could maintain and oversee their own jurisdictions, whereas the Western dioceses broke away from Rome and rejecting apostolic succession had their religious leaders literally break away into personal interpretation, that forbidden by St. Peter in his second letter.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Mass is the perfect and — perpetual – mystery…where we encounter the presence of God among us…and the Mass will continue up to the second coming of Christ.

Therefore it is NOT eternal…as Melchizedek prophesized…perpetual…but only to Christ’s second coming.

Just as Mary was perpetual virgin in context of this present world…

 

[PRmerger]

So now, are you saying, the sacrifice of Christ would still continue in Prepetuity even if the Catholic Church didn’t offer the sacrifice at the Mass?

I don’t know what happens in heaven, except what God has revealed to us through the Church. I would presume that it does–all time is eternity in heaven, no?

I do know that the Mass is our participation in the One Eternal Sacrifice of Christ.

“As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.” CCC1364.

Thus, without the Church offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, every day, every hour, from the rising of the sun even to its setting, the work of redemption could not be applied to humanity.

I do believe you are saying that, as according to other posters (some anyway) its just a re presentation,

I take issue with your use of “just”.

Just like I would if you said, “So Christ was just a sacrificial lamb.”

like if I started an IV on a person and took a video of it , and then I taught a class and verbally re-presented the steps I took to start that IV with the video , it would not mean I actually started another IV.

No, not like a video. More like supernaturally transporting your class to the One Time Event of starting an IV on someone.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic faith is in essence the fulfillment of Judaism.

The Hebrew Catholics experience more fulfillment as Jews now incorporated in the Church, than prior before, without the Church.

However, the Gentiles readily accepted Christ. The first 300 years were extremely hard and also hard to document. The last two emperors of Rome were the most brutal. The Lord came to Constantine either in a dream or vision to have his soldiers put the cross on their shields. They won, and then Constantine allowed Christianity to be a legal religion.

Constantine rebuilt many churches as so many were destroyed. But he did not become a Christian until a few days before his death. He brought prominence to the voice of the Church by elevating the altar and providing a pulpit for the bishop and priests so that Jesus Christ could be proclaimed. In Constantine’s reign, about 1 million pagans joined the Church and brought with them pagan customs…such as genuflecting before the altar and statues…but we do not worship statues, and I think by reading the parts on the Mass one can see our beliefs on worship.

 

[KathleenGee]

I will add one more…the description of the Mass by St. Justin the Martyr upon the request by Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius in the year 155 AD…such a request puzzled Christians as the Mass was understood and practiced pretty much the same throughout the Christian world, there was the Apostles Creed, the episcopal hierarchy, and most books except the Book of Hebrews were acknowledged by the Church as fit for universal public instruction, its authors verified.

St. Justin the Martyr was one of those in early Christian thought who fought heresy and also had his own reflections about God that were later proved incorrect. But nevertheless he was a great saint and martyr.

“Sunday Mass in Rome”…155 AD…

'On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has finished, the president instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”; and there is a distribution to each of the Eucharistic elements. The deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.

Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are wanting, through sickness or any other cause, and those who are imprisoned, and strangers traveling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day, on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration.’

                                                                      --- First Apology 67

The Mass then has the same spirit and tone as today’s and the same parts then are here with us today.

Also note that in Latin language countries, the days of the week are derivatives of ancient Latin gods…Mercury for Monday for example…I used to know them…Portuguese has some, other days of the week are numbered…like Thursday is Quinta feira…but one word.