Sad and confused

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JReducation:
  1. A Jesuit is a man who must never fit into any mold, because Christ cannot be contained in a mold. Make sure that no one imposes structure on you. Structure will impair your mission.Your mission is to do it all for the greater glory of God not for the sake of structure.
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Oh, if only this is lived on a daily basis! What peace it brings, with perfect resignation to God’s holy will. If I were asked to give a summary of where God is centering my spirituality, it would be this same concept. “Through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, **all glory and honor is Yours . . .” **

Thank you, Brother!
 
I’m not trying to limit what he says. I would have no problem with him saying all the time that poverty, unemployment and not taking care of the elderly are huge problems. They are. The problem I have is with him saying they are the most urgent problems. He did not say ‘these are two examples of urgent problems we face’. he said these are the two biggest problems we face. That’s the problem.
 
Oren said:
Like I said, if he said that treating humans as disposable was the biggest problem, then I probably wouldn’t have a problem with that since it encompasses many things like poverty and abortion. But that’s not what he said. It seems like he was trying to tickle the fancy of modern secularists who have socialist concerns.
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That might not be what he said explicitly in so many words, nonetheless it was the clear import of his message conveyed by those words. It was the impression that I came away with immediately. He used those two examples - examples that he knew would make immediate sense to a secular audience - to hit home the fact that vulnerable groups such as these are being reduced to “objects” by profit-seeking, consumerist modern society. They are abandoned because society does not view them as being of any productive, economic value. Surely, the defence of human dignity - whether that be for the unborn, the unemployed, lost youth or the neglected elderly - is a fundamental problem, eternally, facing the church and one of its utmost important tasks?

The pope was speaking in an interview, off-the-cuff so to speak. He is not superhuman. One cannot expect him under time constraints to say everything in a p(name removed by moderator)ointed, exact, perfect fashion.

In the circumstances, I feel strongly that he handled himself very well, came across brilliantly and expressed his message in an exemplary fashion with a view to using language that would be cognizable to the secularized masses rather than merely to devoted Catholics.
 
aTraditionalist said:
I’m beginning to grow weary off the papal apologists that are out there. The Holy Father is either doing a terrible job explain what he means or the media is skewing his words to a more favorable secular meaning. The third option is that he simply means what he says and that would be a terrible option to consider. What ever the case is, I’m a little more than frustrated.
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You’re tired of “papal apologists” – I’m tired of “of course, I know better than the Pope.”
I guess we’re even.
 
I don’t see that as the ‘clear import’ of his words. If you can see that he tells people to stop ‘obsessing’ over abortion and gay marriage and then he says that the most urgent problems are unemployment and lonely old folks…maybe you can see why some people are worried.
I don’t have any judgment over his motivations. I can only read and listen to what he says. I would never say that he is denying any teaching of the church, but FOCUS is very important too. There has been some fallout of priests and bishops being unable to do as much pro life work or say as much about it already because people are taking the words of Pope Francis and using them against pro-life people.
 
Oren said:
I’m not trying to limit what he says. I would have no problem with him saying all the time that poverty, unemployment and not taking care of the elderly are huge problems. They are. The problem I have is with him saying they are the most urgent problems. He did not say ‘these are two examples of urgent problems we face’. he said these are the two biggest problems we face. That’s the problem.
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But perhaps the problem, really, is that what the Holy Father says challenges our understanding of what the essential problems afflicting our world are? Think about it. The young are the future and the old are those who have lived and experienced life. If our young have no future because of de-humanizing, societal trends and our old are treated disdainfully and neglected because they can no longer contribute financially, does that not suggest that there is something deeper, something more fundamental wrong with our culture, our psyche, our soul, our civilization?

It is this that the Holy Father calls, “the most urgent problem that the Church is facing” and this is the “world” that is under the power of the evil one, of sin, spiritual death, blindness, fragmentation; the “world” that badly needs saving grace.

There is a sickness at the heart of our “world” and it is the loss of respect for human dignity, for man created in the image of God; it is the materialistic reduction of him to a mere object rather than an immortal soul made for eternal life.

If this is not the “most serious” problem facing the church in the modern world then I honestly don’t know what is.

It is from this “void” at the heart of our public consciousness in the modern age that all the evils of the “culture of death” spring, including abortion.

Now, if the pope simply hits on “abortion” - will the secular world listen? How can we get them to wake up from their drunkenness and see the light?

The pope knows how. Focus upon two other examples of these de-humanizing trends: disdain for the sanctity of the elderly and their right to care in their old age and the hopeless situation of unemployed youth who are looked on without pity by a cut-throat world enslaved to “mammon”.

As far as I see it, the pope is an expert at being able to make the secular world listen to the Gospel. He has a new language, a new vocabulary that it is not often like birdsong to the ears of some Catholics comfortable with different modes of expression (such as a more ecclesiastical sounding language) but which strikes at the hearts of secular-minded people and makes them think, “Yes, this man touches upon what’s wrong with our society”.

It is from this “Wake-up-call” that the world can be led deeper into the saving truth of the Gospel. It is truly a “New Evangelization”.
 
Vouthon said:
But perhaps the problem, really, is that what the Holy Fathers says challenges our understanding of what the essential problems afflicting our world are? Think about it. The young are the future and the old are those who have lived and experience life. If our young have no future because of de-humanizing, societal trends and our old are treated disdainfully and neglected because they can no longer contribute financially, does that not suggest that there is something deeper, something more fundamental wrong with our culture, our psyche, our soul, our civilization?

It is this that the Holy Father calls, “the most urgent problem that the Church is facing” and this is the “world” that is under the power of the evil one, of sin, spiritual death, blindness, fragmentation; the “world” that badly needs saving grace.

There is a sickness at the heart of our “world” and it the loss of respect for human dignity, for man created in the image of God; it is the materialistic reduction of him to a mere object rather than an immortal soul made for eternal life.

If this is not the “most serious” problem facing the church in the modern world then I honestly don’t know what is.

It is from this “void” at the heart of our public consciousness in the modern age that all the evils of the “culture of death” spring, including abortion.

Now, if the pope simply hits on “abortion” - will the secular world listen? How can we get them to wake up from their drunkenness and see the light?

The pope knows how. Focus upon two other examples of these de-humanizing trends: disdain for the sanctity of the elderly and their right to care in their old age and the hopeless situation of unemployed youth who are looked on without pity by a cut-throat world enslaved to “mammon”.
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If he had said that, then maybe it would give me something to think about. But that’s not what he said. You’re reading a heck of a lot into it. He gave two very specific examples. If he had said, dehumanizing people is the problem…fine. But again, that’s not what he said. He said something vague about being crushed by the present and not being able to hope for the future. I didn’t really see what he was getting at to be honest. I’m going off his two specific examples.
 
Oren said:
I don’t see that as the ‘clear import’ of his words. If you can see that he tells people to stop ‘obsessing’ over abortion and gay marriage and then he says that the most urgent problems are unemployment and lonely old folks…maybe you can see why some people are worried.
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They wouldn’t be so worried if they would just (a) read the actual interviews, not the mainstream media spin; (b) remember that he also specifically said that the teachings of the Church have not changed; and (c) take into account context and who he’s speaking to.

All of which has been said here, by multiple people, over and over and over . . .
 
Oren said:
Try to stop worrying and just pray for the Holy Father. I know youth unemployment and lonely old people are not the worst things in the world. I don’t know why he said that and it is a worrying thing. But, there’s nothing we can do about it but just pray for him that he will speak the truth to people and lead the Church as God wills.
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I guess it is understandable that loneliness of old people is not a concern for many of us. They do not make the news often. If you are young the issue may not be on your radar screen.
A powerful conversion experience for me was taking communion to the nursing home and hospital. If you wish to have a challenging and life-changing experience, go to the nursing home and spend time with the people there. Start with the people sitting right by the door who are waiting day after day for family members and friends to come and visit. Hold one of their hands for a minute, and try to take your hand back. Good luck. These people are forgotten and abandoned in most cases. Every fiber of their being is reaching out to be loved, to be touched, to be looked at, spoken to. They do not just “feel” loneliness, they live it. This is the closest I have come to experiencing Christ before my eyes. It truly is the worst thing in the world to be abandoned and forgotten. Many of these people would welcome death with open arms.

It’s a heartbreaking experience, and it’s a good thing to have your heart broken open wide. If we give them a chance, those suffering people heal us and convert us. If we cannot be open to such a seemingly simple thing as the loneliness right in the midst of us, how can we pretend to solve the really big issues?
That’s what I hear the Pope saying.
 
Mike30 and others,

Please remember that the la repubblica interviews were not recorded, nor did the interviewer take notes, so the text of the interview consists of Scalfari’s “reconstruction” of his “sense” of what the Pope said. It is also unclear to what extent the text was reviewed before it was published.

In other words we don’t know exactly what the Pope said (which is obviously a whole other problem), so take that into consideration.

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/dolan-confirms-error-scalfari-interview

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-scalfari-interview-misses-details-conflates-facts
 
Mike30 said:
The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old.The old need care and companionship; the young need work and hope but have neither one nor the other, and the problem is they don’t even look for them any more. They have been crushed by the present. You tell me: can you live crashed under the weight of the present? Without a memory of the past and without the desire to look ahead to the future by building something, a future, a family? Can you go on like this? This, to me, is the most urgent problem that the Church is facing.” It is not the only problem that we face, but it is the most urgent and the most dramatic,”

Pope Francis

I am tremendously sad tonight. Shaken to the core as it were.

I read these words tonight for the first time. I did not understand. I’ve seen no tortured, twisting explanations of what they really mean. None of the army of experts, translators, interpreters, theologians both real and self proclaimed that always appear to explain the Holy Fathers words have stepped forward to explain the statements. And now for the first time in my life, I am afraid. I’m afraid for the Roman Church. My Church. The Church I never lost faith in or hope for, despite all of the nonsense, the abuses, the scandals, the abandonment of thousands of years of tradition and everything else that happened. I was always certain that the Holy Father and the Bishops knew what was going on and were working to correct it and that they knew what evils they and we were facing… I was sure of that, I never doubted for a minute. through all of those dark dark years. I was sure. I was certain.

I recently saw a video, a documentary on the Greek Orthodox Monasteries of Mount Athos in Greece. In it, a Monk was asked about evil and he was unequivocal about it. The most serious evil facing the Church and mankind was Satan and his demons and their warfare against the human race and God. Nothing else. He said that was why they were there. To pray unceasingly and fight against this greatest of evils.

And I have to wonder about the Holy Fathers statements for I have been shaken to the core by them and I am just not sure any longer. I hate to say that, and I never thought that I would, and I pray that God forgives me for it.
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I understand completely what you are experiencing.
 
Mike30 said:
The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old.The old need care and companionship; the young need work and hope but have neither one nor the other, and the problem is they don’t even look for them any more. They have been crushed by the present. You tell me: can you live crashed under the weight of the present? Without a memory of the past and without the desire to look ahead to the future by building something, a future, a family? Can you go on like this? This, to me, is the most urgent problem that the Church is facing.” It is not the only problem that we face, but it is the most urgent and the most dramatic,”

Pope Francis

I am tremendously sad tonight. Shaken to the core as it were.

I read these words tonight for the first time. I did not understand. I’ve seen no tortured, twisting explanations of what they really mean. None of the army of experts, translators, interpreters, theologians both real and self proclaimed that always appear to explain the Holy Fathers words have stepped forward to explain the statements. And now for the first time in my life, I am afraid. I’m afraid for the Roman Church. My Church. The Church I never lost faith in or hope for, despite all of the nonsense, the abuses, the scandals, the abandonment of thousands of years of tradition and everything else that happened. I was always certain that the Holy Father and the Bishops knew what was going on and were working to correct it and that they knew what evils they and we were facing… I was sure of that, I never doubted for a minute. through all of those dark dark years. I was sure. I was certain.

I recently saw a video, a documentary on the Greek Orthodox Monasteries of Mount Athos in Greece. In it, a Monk was asked about evil and he was unequivocal about it. The most serious evil facing the Church and mankind was Satan and his demons and their warfare against the human race and God. Nothing else. He said that was why they were there. To pray unceasingly and fight against this greatest of evils.

And I have to wonder about the Holy Fathers statements for I have been shaken to the core by them and I am just not sure any longer. I hate to say that, and I never thought that I would, and I pray that God forgives me for it.
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Have faith in God, not man.

Even if Pope Francis turns out to be a horrible Pope, the Church has survived worse.

God Bless
 
I have had the luck to attend a Jesuit Parish for many years. Right now we have 5 priests ranging in age from 36 to 71. Please read Brother JR’s wonderful explanation of Jesuit spirituality, it will help all doubters realize they have no need for concern about our Holy Father’s views!! Thank you again Brother JR for another enlightening post. God Bless You!🙂
 
JReducation said:
I would suggest a few things.

First: Look around you at other Catholics. You’ll notice that most are going about their business as usual. Why? Because what the pope said above is not as unusual as you may think. When you look at it closely, the difference between what he said and what the monk said the the language, not the content. The monks is speaking about sin. The pope is speaking about a very grave sin, which is “disposable human beings” or “human beings a commodities”. The difference is because of culture, not content. A Hispanic would not speak the way that you’re describing the monk. It’s a very foreign way of speaking to speak in vague terms such as “devil, demons, evil”. The Hispanic gets more into describing the evil.

Second: I suggest that you stop and think. This pope is a religious priest, not a secular priest. Religious brothers, sisters and priests do not speak the same as secular laymen or secular priests. We’re trained in a certain culture, if you will. This culture has a language of its own. It also has its own priorities, which are not always shared by the rest of the world, but they are approved by the Church. This culture has a worldview of its own. This culture also has a mission of its own. A pope who comes to you from the religious life does not cease to be a religious. He’s not going to speak and think like a secular priest such as John Paul II or Benedict XVI. He’s going to sound and think like his order. In this case, we have a Jesuit pope. He’s going to think, speak and sound like a Jesuit. We have to get used to that. In time, he’ll get used to the idea that his audience is much bigger than what he’s accustomed to and he’ll adjust his speech a little as well. None of this happens over night.

Fourth: Try to remember that there are many issues that the Church has to address. This takes us to agendas. Every pope has his agenda. From the list of “To Do’s” he’s going to pick those issues that fit his agenda and those that fit his personality. No pope is going to tackle issues that are out of his league. For example, Pope Benedict was a scholar. He tackled theological relativism and liturgy. Pope John Paul II was a philosopher. He tackled political ideologies and the way that youth thought about their faith. Pope Francis is a consecrated religious. He’s going to tackle social concerns and spirituality.

Fifth: I would strongly recommend that you read about the life and work of St. Ignatius of Loyola and his vision for his order. You’ll find that he and his Jesuits follow a mystical spirituality. When you see this, you’ll be able to listen to Pope Francis’ homilies or some statements that he makes and you can appreciate the mysticism that he brings to the table, which many people need. We’ve lost touch with the mystical side of Catholicism.

It is also important to know that St. Ignatius was not fond of piety. He, St.Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross were allergic to pious language. We tend to love such language as “we’re in a spiritual battlefield” or “we’re the Church militant and we have to get out there and fight for the faith.” This is not the way that the Spanish person of faith of the 16th century spoke. They were more military and more poetic at the same time. There was a toughness in their language. They also used very beautiful language. Terms like “sin, devil, evil, enemy, hell and condemnation” were used sparingly. But they were very good at describing evil, sin, hell and condemnation.

The Jesuits are sons of a Spaniard of the 16th century, just like I’m a son of an Italian from the 13th century. When we speak, we lean toward blending the language of our spiritual parents with that of our own culture today.

You’ll see this if you read something like the autobiography of St. Ignatius of Loyola. It’s not that long and it’s very good reading. He was an excellent writer. He really keeps your interest. It reads like a good novel.
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The Holy Father was an Archbishop for around 15 years if memory serves me. One would think that by now he would know how to speak to those outside of his order. If he doesn’t know by now then he probably never will .No, I think the Holy Father says exactly what he means. No ambiguity, no need for translation or explanation. Accept his words. They are exactly what he is trying to say. Exactly what he means.

Most Catholics that I know don’t even go to Mass any longer so they really don’t care what the Holy Father says. To them it is a non issue.

Brother, I have always respected you. I don’t always agree with you and find some of your statements quite puzzling, maybe my inability to understand the mindset of a 13th century father as it were:D. But I have always respected you.

But you and I are in full agreement on one thing… You said that all Popes have an agenda, I agree.

Pope Francis most definitely does have an agenda. Whether or not the fruits of that agenda will be good or bad for the Church in the long run remains to be seen.

I have read the autobiography. Interesting read. St. Ignatius was an incredible man who lived an incredible life.

I do hope that your health is improving and that all is well with you.
 
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