Sad and confused

[McCall1981]

I get this, but it’s a big change. The last two Popes (the only one’s I remember) only spoke publicly when saying something important. So, I’m in the habit of paying attention when the Pope speaks.

This Pope seems intent on making off-the-cuff remarks. So, I guess I have to learn to “tune-out” the Pope somewhat. But that feels odd to me.

God Bless

Yes, I know what you mean.

It feels odd to me too that it’s been six months now and so many people, including me, really don’t know what to make of him. I’ve paid very close attention. I’ve read, I think, every homily he has given as Pope. Yet, I honestly still don’t know what to make of him AT ALL, other than he produces a lot of fear in me. I keep waiting for that moment when things start to feel better, but it keeps not happening.

Also, as others have said, it’s not about trying to bash him at all, quite the opposite. I have created a number of threads this past six months in the Trad forum and Catholic News forum dedicated to something good that he did or said. For instance, there’s a thread in Catholic News right now that I started for when he defended celibacy and consecrated virginity. I’m thrilled to get the news out when something good happens, both for my own sake and for others who are worried and could use some good news. I’m actively seeking good news, and trying to do my part to spread good news when it happens.

In other words, I don’t want to bash or complain. What I hope for is to be convinced by the Popes words and actions that he is a great Pope, and that I was totally ridiculous for ever doubting him. I want to be “converted” to loving and trusting him, and I’m actively trying to bring that about. It just hasn’t happened.

 

[choliks]

I find it funny that many pay closer attention to his off-the-cuff remarks than his excellent homilies. The homilies thread is somewhere down page 4 of this forum, i think. LOL.

 

[choliks]

Yes, I know what you mean.

It feels odd to me too that it’s been six months now and so many people, including me, really don’t know what to make of him. I’ve paid very close attention. I’ve read, I think, every homily he has given as Pope. Yet, I honestly still don’t know what to make of him AT ALL, other than he produces a lot of fear in me. I keep waiting for that moment when things start to feel better, but it keeps not happening.

Also, as others have said, it’s not about trying to bash him at all, quite the opposite. I have created a number of threads this past six months in the Trad forum and Catholic News forum dedicated to something good that he did or said. For instance, there’s a thread in Catholic News right now that I started for when he defended celibacy and consecrated virginity. I’m thrilled to get the news out when something good happens, both for my own sake and for others who are worried and could use some good news. I’m actively seeking good news, and trying to do my part to spread good news when it happens.

In other words, I don’t want to bash or complain. What I hope for is to be convinced by the Popes words and actions that he is a great Pope, and that I was totally ridiculous for ever doubting him. I want to be “converted” to loving and trusting him, and I’m actively trying to bring that about. It just hasn’t happened.

My friend, you sound like you’re asking God to perform a miracle so you might have faith; or Thomas who required to see Christ’s wound in order to believe. Blessed indeed is he who has not seen yet believed.

Conversion always happen when we are open to the Holy Spirit; when we allow Him to work in our lives. St. Ignatius’ own conversion started when he payed attention to God in the lives of the Saints.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I find it funny that many pay closer attention to his off-the-cuff remarks than his excellent homilies. The homilies thread is somewhere down page 4 of this forum, i think. LOL.

I’m praying for the day when Pope Interview threads are a banned topic here. Not because I hate the Pope’s interviews but because I hate the type of threads that start because of them.

 

[TrueLight]

In a healthy Christian spirituality one maintains one’s focus in one’s present moment and in those things that are directly before us and things where we can make a difference. I can make a difference in world hunger. I can’t make a difference because the pope said something and the media reports it. As far as I’m concerned that’s like any other world leader. They’re going to say things, some things are more formal than others, the media may get it right or may not. The relationship between the pope and the media is no exception.

That is actually what I’m trying to focus on; otherwise I would lose my mind. We are to be aware of what is going on around us, but we can’t let it become a distraction to our spiritual lives and our relationship with God.

I’ve learned to focus on the positive instead of on the negative. In other words, rather than criticize what someone is doing that I think is wrong, I am choosing to do what I believe is right.

Instead of focusing on irreverent Masses, I am doing my best to support reverent Masses, etc, etc…

 

[McCall1981]

My friend, you sound like you’re asking God to perform a miracle so you might have faith; or Thomas who required to see Christ’s wound in order to believe. Blessed indeed is he who has not seen yet believed.

Conversion always happen when we are open to the Holy Spirit; when we allow Him to work in our lives. St. Ignatius’ own conversion started when he payed attention to God in the lives of the Saints.

I know what you mean, and in a sense you’re certainly right, but is it really asking for a “miracle” just to see reason to trust your own Pope?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I know what you mean, and in a sense you’re certainly right, but is it really asking for a “miracle” just to see reason to trust your own Pope?

I know this will not be a popular statement on this board, but I was not particularly fond of Benedict XVI in the beginning, however I never did not “trust” him.

For me, it was more of not understanding where he was coming from. Once I educated myself through his earlier writings, and started to familarize myself with his style of doing things I saw him in a much different light.

If, as Catholics, were truly believe that the Holy Spirit is working through the Pope and the Church, we really have no reason to have “trust”, it is more a matter of having faith.

As has been shown over & over again, in multiple threads, Pope Francis is saying nothing new, he is just saying it in a new way. For those who aren’t understanding, maybe you need to learn how to listen differently.

 

[aTraditionalist]

You’re tired of “papal apologists” – I’m tired of “of course, I know better than the Pope.”
I guess we’re even.

Woah there big guy. Way to shove words in my mouth. Never once did I claim to know better than the Holy Father nor intend a direct assault on your fragile sensibilities. I stated that I am weary of the last couple of statements that have been made. Lately it seems that the Pope speaks and all hell breaks loose. There is the couple of days that the media runs with the message, then the army of apologists that explain the comments and further define it with context. I’m simply saying that I’m now confused and weary of the confusion that follows his statements. I shouldn’t require an interpretation of what the pope said to understand what he was really saying. Thus I logically concluded the three possible scenarios and outcomes. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now but papal infallibility only applies to doctrines of the faith not every word that pours forth from the Pope’s mouth. We aren’t even on anything for what it’s worth. This isn’t a contest by any means. There are a large amount of Catholics that are genuinely confused currently and your blind allegiance isn’t going to further the conversation. I mean all of this with the utmost respect and love.

 

[aTraditionalist]

You’re tired of “papal apologists” – I’m tired of “of course, I know better than the Pope.”
I guess we’re even.

Woah there big guy. Way to shove words in my mouth. Never once did I claim to know better than the Holy Father nor intend a direct assault on your fragile sensibilities. I stated that I am weary of the last couple of statements that have been made. Lately it seems that the Pope speaks and all hell breaks loose. There is the couple of days that the media runs with the message, then the army of apologists that explain the comments and further define it with context. I’m simply saying that I’m now confused and weary of the confusion that follows his statements. I shouldn’t require an interpretation of what the pope said to understand what he was really saying. Thus I logically concluded the three possible scenarios and outcomes. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now but papal infallibility only applies to doctrines of the faith not every word that pours forth from the Pope’s mouth. We aren’t even on anything for what it’s worth. This isn’t a contest by any means. There are a large amount of Catholics that are genuinely confused currently and your blind allegiance isn’t going to further the conversation. I mean all of this with the utmost respect and love.

 

[Oren]

I guess it is understandable that loneliness of old people is not a concern for many of us. They do not make the news often. If you are young the issue may not be on your radar screen.
A powerful conversion experience for me was taking communion to the nursing home and hospital. If you wish to have a challenging and life-changing experience, go to the nursing home and spend time with the people there. Start with the people sitting right by the door who are waiting day after day for family members and friends to come and visit. Hold one of their hands for a minute, and try to take your hand back. Good luck. These people are forgotten and abandoned in most cases. Every fiber of their being is reaching out to be loved, to be touched, to be looked at, spoken to. They do not just “feel” loneliness, they live it. This is the closest I have come to experiencing Christ before my eyes. It truly is the worst thing in the world to be abandoned and forgotten. Many of these people would welcome death with open arms.

It’s a heartbreaking experience, and it’s a good thing to have your heart broken open wide. If we give them a chance, those suffering people heal us and convert us. If we cannot be open to such a seemingly simple thing as the loneliness right in the midst of us, how can we pretend to solve the really big issues?
That’s what I hear the Pope saying.

I worked in a nursing home for six months as a CNA. I know what it’s like, believe me. It still isn’t the worst thing in the world. Being a lonely old person it not worse than a mother having a doctor tear her baby limb from limb. There’s no comparison.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I worked in a nursing home for six months as a CNA. I know what it’s like, believe me. It still isn’t the worst thing in the world. Being a lonely old person it not worse than a mother having a doctor tear her baby limb from limb. There’s no comparison.

You’re right there is no comparison, the are different examples of the disdain for a human life that has no value because they do not contribute anything to society. There are the same evils, on different ends of the spectrum, and both are crimes against the dignity of the human being.

 

[choliks]

I know what you mean, and in a sense you’re certainly right, but is it really asking for a “miracle” just to see reason to trust your own Pope?

It would be a miracle for you to let go of your doubts and fears, and just trust (For that I will pray for you).

Sure, we can hope and pray that God would give our Pope the graces to be “great”, but we can’t demand it from the Holy Father. He is not out there to prove himself to you or me, only to God. Heck, he does not even want to be a great pope. I think Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI didn’t want to be great either. God’s grace, their humility and gifts to the Church (self, talents, intellect, etc.) made them great.

Pope Francis is no different. He just wants to be conformed to the crucified Christ, which is also his desire for the Church. He made this clear in his teachings and homilies. His manner might be different because of him being a Jesuit, but the message and the Truth remains.

Jesuits always try to find God in all things as part of their discernment. I invite you, too, to find God in all things, even in your desolation. What is He trying to tell you in your moments of doubt and fear of our Holy Father?

 

[agnes_therese]

Woah there big guy.

Big guy? Seriously?

Way to shove words in my mouth. Never once did I claim to know better than the Holy father

Where did I say you did? You made a general complaint, I made a general complaint. I was unaware there are different rules for your posts than for everyone else’s. My apologies for my ignorance.

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now

Wow, how generous of you. He’s only the Pope.

but papal infallibility only applies to doctrines of the faith not every word that pours forth from the Pope’s mouth.

I haven’t seen anyone say that these are infallible ex cathedra pronouncements. Could you point out one or two instances to me, please?

and your blind allegiance isn’t going to further the conversation.

Saying he should be read in full and in context is “blind allegiance”? Not a common definition, but OK, if you say so.

I mean all of this with the utmost respect and love.

Of course you do.

 

[choliks]

It would be a miracle for you to let go of your doubts and fears, and just trust (For that I will pray for you).

Sure, we can hope and pray that God would give our Pope the graces to be “great”, but we can’t demand it from the Holy Father. He is not out there to prove himself to you or me, only to God. Heck, he does not even want to be a great pope. I think Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI didn’t want to be great either. God’s grace, their humility and gifts to the Church (self, talents, intellect, etc.) made them great.

Pope Francis is no different. He just wants to be conformed to the crucified Christ, which is also his desire for the Church. He made this clear in his teachings and homilies. His manner might be different because of him being a Jesuit, but the message and the Truth remains.

Jesuits always try to find God in all things as part of their discernment. I invite you, too, to find God in all things, even in your desolation. What is He trying to tell you in your moments of doubt and fear of our Holy Father?

For what its worth, I believe those (from both sides of the political/ideological spectrum) who think the Holy Father should prove himself will be disappointed.

 

[McCall1981]

It would be a miracle for you to let go of your doubts and fears, and just trust (For that I will pray for you).

Sure, we can hope and pray that God would give our Pope the graces to be “great”, but we can’t demand it from the Holy Father. He is not out there to prove himself to you or me, only to God. Heck, he does not even want to be a great pope. I think Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI didn’t want to be great either. God’s grace, their humility and gifts to the Church (self, talents, intellect, etc.) made them great.

Pope Francis is no different. He just wants to be conformed to the crucified Christ, which is also his desire for the Church. He made this clear in his teachings and homilies. His manner might be different because of him being a Jesuit, but the message and the Truth remains.

Jesuits always try to find God in all things as part of their discernment. I invite you, too, to find God in all things, even in your desolation. What is He trying to tell you in your moments of doubt and fear of our Holy Father?

Thats a very good question.

Thanks for your prayers

 

[severus68]

Woah there big guy. Way to shove words in my mouth. Never once did I claim to know better than the Holy Father nor intend a direct assault on your fragile sensibilities. I stated that I am weary of the last couple of statements that have been made. Lately it seems that the Pope speaks and all hell breaks loose. There is the couple of days that the media runs with the message, then the army of apologists that explain the comments and further define it with context. I’m simply saying that I’m now confused and weary of the confusion that follows his statements. I shouldn’t require an interpretation of what the pope said to understand what he was really saying. Thus I logically concluded the three possible scenarios and outcomes. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now but papal infallibility only applies to doctrines of the faith not every word that pours forth from the Pope’s mouth. We aren’t even on anything for what it’s worth. This isn’t a contest by any means. There are a large amount of Catholics that are genuinely confused currently and your blind allegiance isn’t going to further the conversation. I mean all of this with the utmost respect and love.

I am sure the Pope will be so pleased that you are giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Its not ‘blind allegiance’, its about faith and respect. Most Catholics are not spending time worrying about what the Pope says and are not on the internet talking about being confused. Many do not have the luxury of a computer, they are worrying about their next meal and being able to feed their families.

 

[hazcompat]

I agree, we have lost TOUCH with mysticism.

From the Journey of the Mind to God by Saint Bonaventure
Mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit

Christ is both the way and the door. Christ is the staircase and the vehicle, like the throne of mercy over the Ark of the Covenant, and the mystery hidden from the ages. A man should turn his full attention to this throne of mercy, and should gaze at him hanging on the cross, full of faith, hope and charity, devoted, full of wonder and joy, marked by gratitude, and open to praise and jubilation. Then such a man will make with Christ a pasch, that is, a passing-over. Through the branches of the cross he will pass over the Red Sea, leaving Egypt and entering the desert. There he will taste the hidden manna, and rest with Christ in the sepulcher, as if he were dead to things outside. He will experience, as much as is possible for one who is still living, what was promised to the thief who hung beside Christ: Today you will be with me in paradise.

For this passover to be perfect, we must suspend all the operations of the mind and we must transform the peak of our affections, directing them to God alone. This is a sacred mystical experience. It cannot be comprehended by anyone unless he surrenders himself to it; nor can he surrender himself to it unless he longs for it; nor can he long for it unless the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent into the world, should come and inflame his innermost soul. Hence the Apostle says that this mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

If you ask how such things can occur, seek the answer in God’s grace, not in doctrine; in the longing of the will, not in the understanding; in the sighs of prayer, not in research; seek the bridegroom not the teacher; God and not man; darkness not daylight; and look not to the light but rather to the raging fire that carries the soul to God with intense fervor and glowing love. The fire is God, and the furnace is in Jerusalem, fired by Christ in the ardor of his loving passion. Only he understood this who said: My soul chose hanging and my bones death. Anyone who cherishes this kind of death can see God, for it is certainly true that: No man can look upon me and live.

Let us die, then, and enter into the darkness, silencing our anxieties, our passions and all the fantasies of our imagination. Let us pass over with the crucified Christ from this world to the Father, so that, when the Father has shown himself to us, we can say with Philip: It is enough. We may hear with Paul: My grace is sufficient for you; and we can rejoice with David, saying: My flesh and my heart fail me, but God is the strength of my heart and my heritage for ever. Blessed be the Lord for ever, and let all the people say: Amen. Amen!

Peace

 

[choliks]

I agree, we have lost TOUCH with mysticism.

From the Journey of the Mind to God by Saint Bonaventure
Mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit

Christ is both the way and the door. Christ is the staircase and the vehicle, like the throne of mercy over the Ark of the Covenant, and the mystery hidden from the ages. A man should turn his full attention to this throne of mercy, and should gaze at him hanging on the cross, full of faith, hope and charity, devoted, full of wonder and joy, marked by gratitude, and open to praise and jubilation. Then such a man will make with Christ a pasch, that is, a passing-over. Through the branches of the cross he will pass over the Red Sea, leaving Egypt and entering the desert. There he will taste the hidden manna, and rest with Christ in the sepulcher, as if he were dead to things outside. He will experience, as much as is possible for one who is still living, what was promised to the thief who hung beside Christ: Today you will be with me in paradise.

For this passover to be perfect, we must suspend all the operations of the mind and we must transform the peak of our affections, directing them to God alone. This is a sacred mystical experience. It cannot be comprehended by anyone unless he surrenders himself to it; nor can he surrender himself to it unless he longs for it; nor can he long for it unless the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent into the world, should come and inflame his innermost soul. Hence the Apostle says that this mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

If you ask how such things can occur, seek the answer in God’s grace, not in doctrine; in the longing of the will, not in the understanding; in the sighs of prayer, not in research; seek the bridegroom not the teacher; God and not man; darkness not daylight; and look not to the light but rather to the raging fire that carries the soul to God with intense fervor and glowing love. The fire is God, and the furnace is in Jerusalem, fired by Christ in the ardor of his loving passion. Only he understood this who said: My soul chose hanging and my bones death. Anyone who cherishes this kind of death can see God, for it is certainly true that: No man can look upon me and live.

Let us die, then, and enter into the darkness, silencing our anxieties, our passions and all the fantasies of our imagination. Let us pass over with the crucified Christ from this world to the Father, so that, when the Father has shown himself to us, we can say with Philip: It is enough. We may hear with Paul: My grace is sufficient for you; and we can rejoice with David, saying: My flesh and my heart fail me, but God is the strength of my heart and my heritage for ever. Blessed be the Lord for ever, and let all the people say: Amen. Amen!

Peace

Amen. Amen!

 

[AndyP2010]

A traditionalist defense of Pope Francis Here

Some quotes:

Rudolph Giuliani was elected mayor in 1992, and his crime fighting style was to go after “little” crimes like subway turnstyle jumpers. What? People are being gunned down in the street and you’re going after people who jump the turnstyles? (Sound anything like “millions of babies are being aborted and you’re worried about unemployment?”) Well, it turned out that many of those jumpers were also big time criminals. The cops couldn’t catch them in the big crimes, but were able to catch them in the “little things” and get them off the street that way. The theory is, take care of the “little problems” and the big problems will take care of themselves. This tactic drove crime down drastically in New York City, and NYC is now the safest big city in the United States.

It seems to me that this is exactly what Pope Francis is doing on a spiritual level. There is no “willful obscuring” going on with Pope Francis. Do you really believe that Pope Francis has no concern about the Culture of Death? He has condemned such things as abortion and same sex marriage many times. But let’s face it, the world has not and will not listen to the church on these matters. Abortion and same sex marriage are now accepted worldwide. Even Ireland, once the most Catholic country in the world, has legalized abortion.

So Pope Francis is concentrating on “little” things (which really aren’t little at all) like “unemployment among the youth” and “loneliness among the elderly” because these are issues upon which everyone can agree. Lots of Catholics seemed to get very upset at these remarks, but the world at large nodded their head in agreement to these words: “The old need care and companionship; the young need work and hope but have neither one nor the other, and the problem is they don’t even look for them any more. They have been crushed by the present. You tell me: can you live crushed under the weight of the present?” Because many in the world connected with these words, the Catholic blogosphere pointed to that as proof that the Pope had completely lost it.

The reason Catholics and other people of faith care about issues such as abortion is because we have hope, which we receive from our faith. This hope helps us see the value of life. Pope Francis pointed to two issues which not only destroy hope but actually engender hopelessness and despair in people. When people see only bleakness in the future, why should they care about anything else? Nothing makes sense. What difference does it make if babies are being killed and families are being destroyed? It’s all hopeless. As Pope Francis says, “they have been crushed by the present.” If a person is being crushed under a rock, do you think he is going to care about anything else? But if we can give people a sense of hope and help them discover the true value and dignity of life, then they too will start to care about the “big” issues. Only then will things start to change.