Sad States of America

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

In this forum, there have been a couple of threads regarding gun control laws. I have been reading them with so much interest. (Although I stopped responding to one of the threads, I did continue reading it.) This has been a really fascinating subject for me of late.

Being an Australian, I am for gun control. (Generally speaking, most Australians are.) And I always feel perfectly safe. (In fact, the thought of a gun scares me. I even get a little nervous when I see a police officer with a gun in his holster.)

But I am amazed and saddened at the level of fear that Americans have for their own safety that they are now so in love with their guns.

I hope Australia never reaches that sad state. But Australia surely follows America in many ways. (You’re like our big brother, so to speak…) But I need to ask a question…

What can/should Australia do to prevent it from becoming a place like America, where people feel they need guns to protect themselves?

(I hope nobody finds this thread offensive; But I think we need to learn something from America.)

 

[LilyM]

Being an Australian, I am for gun control. (Generally speaking, most Australians are.) And I always feel perfectly safe.

here too - and I even grew up with a father who was a sporting hunter and brother-in-law is a sporting shooter too. Just never could understand the ‘guns will protect us from other guns’ mentality.

Had no idea you were an Aussie Charlie - there sure are a fair few of us on here! What part of this wide brown land do you hail from?

 

[stbruno]

My spouse and I never bought toy guns for our kids. We spoke out very vehemently with anyone we know not to buy them for our kids and our opposition to them. We do teen ministry and we talk about why guns are not necessary to guard ourselves. Better to take karate lessons or self-awareness classes. And how to protect themselves wisely without the use of weapons. If more parents did this…there would be no need for personal hand guns. Sadly, parents instead purchase them all the time.

By the way, many of the youth of our diocese will be in Austrailia for World Youth Day! God bless our southern friends!

 

[Verisimilitude]

But I am amazed and saddened at the level of fear that Americans have for their own safety that they are now so in love with their guns.

I would not clasify it as a level of fear as much as a Constitutional right.

I hope Australia never reaches that sad state. But Australia surely follows America in many ways. (You’re like our big brother, so to speak…) But I need to ask a question…

The founding of our nations had different causes, and I think it stems from that more than anything. I am glad to hear you say that. I have always been fond of Austrailians and hope our friendship stays strong.

What can/should Australia do to prevent it from becoming a place like America, where people feel they need guns to protect themselves?

(I hope nobody finds this thread offensive; But I think we need to learn something from America.)

Again, it stems from how America came about. We were protecting ourselves from the current government of England, and admittedly it has expanded somewhat from that original intent to protect ourselves from our own government to protecting ourselves from each other. That is still the intent for either the government cannot protect us from others, or we need to protect ourselves from our government. The US Civil war was so bloody because of that but we emerged stonger after.

I own one pistol and 3 rifles and one shotgun. I do not carry them anywhere except when I go out hiking or recreational shooting, but like that I have them in my home for the unlikely event a person of ill intent gets past my big dog. But people need not fear people like me. I obeyed the law in obtaining mine, and even before I was in the military my father taught me proper gun use and safety. I also obey the laws regarding my weapons.

It is the criminal who does not obey laws and who should be feared whether firearms are legal or not. A corrupt government should be feard and history is repleate with them. I would not say the US 2nd Amendment is for all nations and populations, but neither would I think a complete ban and outlawing all private weapons is a good idea.

I suppose if you think your goverment is perpetually trustworthy and think they can protect you well enough without taking such protections yourself, then you will not feel the need to have something like the 2nd Amendment.

 

[LilyM]

The US Civil war was so bloody because of that but we emerged stonger after.

You need not have emerged from anything if you’d not had that horrific Civil War to set you back - you could have been stronger still without it. Australia has never had a civil war and now we’re very strong thanks.

But people need not fear people like me. I obeyed the law in obtaining mine, and even before I was in the military my father taught me proper gun use and safety. I also obey the laws regarding my weapons.

It is the criminal who does not obey laws and who should be feared whether firearms are legal or not.

You’re right - but the criminals themselves would have fewer weapons available to them to use if there were fewer gun-collecting enthusiast citizens like yourself, and fewer of the gun shops you frequent, to take or steal them from. Less demand = smaller supply, for criminals too, it’s that simple. And to be able to get guns or ammuntion from places like Walmart! :bigyikes:

I suppose if you think your goverment is perpetually trustworthy and think they can protect you well enough without taking such protections yourself, then you will not feel the need to have something like the 2nd Amendment.

This may be an unpopular notion but I really think compulsory voting like we have can have a part to play here. I may not personally like the current government, but I know, and the government know, that literally or nearly 100% of citizens did have both the option and the obligation to vote, so the country as a whole truly did get the government it wanted and deserves.

It’s against their interests to do anything too terrible to those who voted them in, and it’s against my interests to try to do anything to a government that the majority of my fellow-citizens want.

 

[Verisimilitude]

You need not have emerged from anything if you’d not had that horrific Civil War to set you back - you could have been stronger still without it. Australia has never had a civil war and now we’re very strong thanks.

We can’t know what the outcome would have been if it had been otherwise. No question- Austrailians are a worthy nation to be admired.

You’re right - but the criminals themselves would have fewer weapons available to them to use if there were fewer gun-collecting enthusiast citizens like yourself, and fewer of the gun shops you frequent, to take or steal them from. Less demand = smaller supply, for criminals too, it’s that simple. And to be able to get guns or ammuntion from places like Walmart! :bigyikes:

Likely true, but it might be a little late to clean up that spilled milk now.

This may be an unpopular notion but I really think compulsory voting like we have can have a part to play here. I may not personally like the current government, but I know, and the government know, that literally or nearly 100% of citizens did have both the option and the obligation to vote, so the country as a whole truly did get the government it wanted and deserves.

But there is no gurantee it will stay that way.

It’s against their interests to do anything too terrible to those who voted them in, and it’s against my interests to try to do anything to a government that the majority of my fellow-citizens want.

Situations can change rapidly, and not for the better.

 

[mary_bobo]

In this forum, there have been a couple of threads regarding gun control laws. I have been reading them with so much interest. (Although I stopped responding to one of the threads, I did continue reading it.) This has been a really fascinating subject for me of late.

Being an Australian, I am for gun control. (Generally speaking, most Australians are.) And I always feel perfectly safe. (In fact, the thought of a gun scares me. I even get a little nervous when I see a police officer with a gun in his holster.)

It is your right and privilege to be against whatever you wish. You may feel perfectly safe and I am glad that you do. But Australia is not the US and things are very different here. We have a much larger population and more diverse. You say you are afraid of guns. One is often afraid of things they know nothing about. And I can’t imagine why you would be afraid of police with guns.

But I am amazed and saddened at the level of fear that Americans have for their own safety that they are now so in love with their guns.

That is really an uncalled for remark.

I hope Australia never reaches that sad state. But Australia surely follows America in many ways. (You’re like our big brother, so to speak…) But I need to ask a question…

What can/should Australia do to prevent it from becoming a place like America, where people feel they need guns to protect themselves?

(I hope nobody finds this thread offensive; But I think we need to learn something from America.)

What can you do? You seem to have handled the situation in a way that works for you. I find your thread offensive because the statements about our laws are just not true. We have a larger population and the population is not as spread out as yours. I’m sorry you feel like we are a Big Brother. I’m sorry you have criticized things you do not understand.

 

[hosemonkey]

This topic has been flogged to death on another thread. Australians seem to be remarkably ignorant of our history and the events of history that make us what we are. Our nation was born of oppression and abuse by the British Crown. Armed patriots secured our independence after years of bloody war. The Brits tried it again in 1812 and were again trounced by armed patriots. These wars were fought by armed citizens and by citizen-soldiers, armed by the God-given rights in the Constitution. The War between the States was tragic, but certain principles had to be confirmed in order for this nation to progress and for the Union to be preserved. The rights of States had to be established within the context of Federal government. Slavery was an issue, but the rights of the individual States was what the war was all about. American “violence” is blamed on the “frontier mentality.” In fact, there was less crime and violence in the 19th century and in the earlier 20th century, than we have now. Loss of personal respect and absence of morality is what leads to violence, not guns. If Australians chose to meekly give up their right to self-defense and to place themselves at the mercy of whatever brand of Government that holds power, that it certainly their look-out. I would rather retain the option of personal arms to deter tyranny, if that be the direction some future government may take. A right once given up, may never be claimed again. If giving up your rights works for you Aussies, then good on you. It doesn’t work for us.

 

[LilyM]

This topic has been flogged to death on another thread. Australians seem to be remarkably ignorant of our history and the events of history that make us what we are. Our nation was born of oppression and abuse by the British Crown. Armed patriots secured our independence after years of bloody war. The Brits tried it again in 1812 and were again trounced by armed patriots. These wars were fought by armed citizens and by citizen-soldiers, armed by the God-given rights in the Constitution. The War between the States was tragic, but certain principles had to be confirmed in order for this nation to progress and for the Union to be preserved. The rights of States had to be established within the context of Federal government. Slavery was an issue, but the rights of the individual States was what the war was all about. American “violence” is blamed on the “frontier mentality.” In fact, there was less crime and violence in the 19th century and in the earlier 20th century, than we have now. Loss of personal respect and absence of morality is what leads to violence, not guns. If Australians chose to meekly give up their right to self-defense and to place themselves at the mercy of whatever brand of Government that holds power, that it certainly their look-out. I would rather retain the option of personal arms to deter tyranny, it that be the direction some future government may take. A right once given up, may never be claimed again. If giving up your rights works for you Aussies, then good on you. It doesn’t work for us.

I don’t think any specified legal right or lack thereof really matters a tinkers when you’re on the wrong end of armed oppression. Americans didn’t have a specific right to bear arms PRIOR to the Revolution. If they didn’t need one then why do they need one now?

And I’m sure Australians could defend ourselves as well as any other country’s citizens if the government became unduly oppressive, and would take to arms if necessary with or without the legal right to bear such.

 

[hosemonkey]

My spouse and I never bought toy guns for our kids. We spoke out very vehemently with anyone we know not to buy them for our kids and our opposition to them. We do teen ministry and we talk about why guns are not necessary to guard ourselves.

Better to take karate lessons or self-awareness classes

Ah, yes. Self awareness, that will certainly deter the thug who is kicking in your door. Give 'em a good dose of self-awareness while they are car-jacking you. Works every time.

 

[mary_bobo]

I don’t think any specified legal right or lack thereof really matters a tinkers when you’re on the wrong end of armed oppression. Americans didn’t have a specific right to bear arms PRIOR to the Revolution. If they didn’t need one then why do they need one now?

And I’m sure Australians could defend ourselves as well as any other country’s citizens if the government became unduly oppressive, and would take to arms if necessary with or without the legal right to bear such.

You mean there are actually guns in Australia! Seriously, you are entitled to your opinion, but I am getting a little weary of our “friends” across the ponds waxing on subjects they do not understand and throwing in little snide remarks. We have different laws here and a different population and many more people. And we certainly did need firearms prior to the Revolutionary War. How were we able to defend ourselves without them?

 

[hosemonkey]

I don’t think any specified legal right or lack thereof really matters a tinkers when you’re on the wrong end of armed oppression. Americans didn’t have a specific right to bear arms PRIOR to the Revolution. If they didn’t need one then why do they need one now?

And I’m sure Australians could defend ourselves as well as any other country’s citizens if the government became unduly oppressive, and would take to arms if necessary with or without the legal right to bear such.

Because the colonists possessed arms prior to the Revolution, they were able to finally throw off the yoke of oppression. I am sure that if the Brits had known that these farmers and craftsmen would be such formidable foes in advance, they would have busily confiscated all arms, just as they did yours. Which brings up the question, if your government decides to tyrannize you Aussies, were are ya gonna get your weapons??? THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY GOT YOURS!!! Maybe you could use karate or self-awareness.

 

[LilyM]

Because the colonists possessed arms prior to the Revolution, they were able to finally throw off the yoke of oppression. I am sure that if the Brits had known that these farmers and craftsmen would be such formidable foes in advance, they would have busily confiscated all arms, just as they did yours. Which brings up the question, if your government decides to tyrannize you Aussies, were are ya gonna get your weapons??? THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY GOT YOURS!!! Maybe you could use karate or self-awareness.

And if you have five or five hundred pistols, semi-automatics or even fully automatics what are you going to do against a government that has tanks, planes and NUCLEAR weapons for heaven’s sake!!! You’re deluding yourself.

 

[hosemonkey]

And if you have five or five hundred pistols, semi-automatics or even fully automatics what are you going to do against a government that has tanks, planes and NUCLEAR weapons for heaven’s sake!!! You’re deluding yourself.

Well, I guess that being as you did it to yourselves, by giving Government the sure knowledge that you are effectively disarmed, you just roll over, curl up in a ball and commend your soul to God. I am very sure that someone in His Majesty’s government in 1774 said something similar, “how can these farmers stand against the greatest Army and best Navy in the world, all they have are hunting rifles and almost no cannon. The war will be over by next Monday.” “He who would trade freedom for security, deserves neither.”
Benjamin Franklin

 

[LilyM]

Well, I guess that being as you did it to yourselves, by giving Government the sure knowledge that you are effectively disarmed, you just roll over, curl up in a ball and commend your soul to God. I am very sure that someone in His Majesty’s government in 1774 said something similar, “how can these farmers stand against the greatest Army and best Navy in the world, all they have are hunting rifles and almost no cannon. The war will be over by next Monday.” “He who would trade security for freedom, deserves neither.”
Benjamin Franklin

Cannon are just a little different to nukes that can blow up whole cities in one hit, my friend, as the Japanese found in WW2.

 

[hosemonkey]

Cannon are just a little different to nukes that can blow up whole cities in one hit, my friend, as the Japanese found in WW2.

Your argument is becoming weaker. No government has prevailed against an armed uprising by the people, in spite of possessing nuclear weapons. The VC and NVA taught us that in Vietnam, The Afgans taught that to the Soviets in Afganistan and Muslim terrorists are illustrating that lesson in Iraq. Nobody uses nukes on major powers, much less rebels. Get real.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Nobody uses nukes on major powers…

I have been trying to sit by the side watching in silence this thread unfold, but that is the saddest thing I’ve heard. Please don’t suggest that we are immune from a Nuclear attack.

 

[hosemonkey]

I have been trying to sit by the side watching in silence this thread unfold, but that is the saddest thing I’ve heard. Please don’t suggest that we are immune from a Nuclear attack.

Aside from the odd moslem crazy group or possibly North Korea, no government would consider using a nuclear weapon on an internal rebel group. To think otherwise is absurd. I did not say anything about immunity from nuclear attack, I said that no government would consider using a nuclear weapon on an internal dissident group. Such a course would result in internal as well as external suicide. We are not talking about nuclear attack. The last poster talked about nuking rebels, I am talking about Australians meekly giving up their means of self-defense against a tyrannical government. Besides, nukes or not, what have you got to lose? Your life? Die on your feet, live on your knees? Your choice.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Again, it stems from how America came about. We were protecting ourselves from the current government of England, and admittedly it has expanded somewhat from that original intent to protect ourselves from our own government to protecting ourselves from each other…

hmmm… I think that would be right. I’m starting to get a more accurate picture of history now.

I suppose if you think your goverment is perpetually trustworthy and think they can protect you well enough without taking such protections yourself, then you will not feel the need to have something like the 2nd Amendment.

People die on the roads, but that’s the risk I take when I drive my car.
People drown in pools, but that’s the risk I take by having a pool in my back yard.
Governments can become corrupt, and that’s the risk I take when I hand over gun control to them.
I could be attacked or murdered, and that’s the risk I take when I refuse to carry a gun.

I suppose, depending on where you live, they are risks people are willing to take.

 

[LilyM]

hmmm… I think that would be right. I’m starting to get a more accurate picture of history now.

People die on the roads, but that’s the risk I take when I drive my car.
People drown in pools, but that’s the risk I take by having a pool in my back yard.
Governments can become corrupt, and that’s the risk I take when I have over gun control to them.
I could be attacked or murdered, and that’s the risk I take when I refuse to carry a gun.

I suppose, depending on where you live, they are risks people are willing to take.

Not to mention that if you OWN guns you take the risk that they will either be used deliberately against you (and guns, IIRC, ARE much more likely to end up being used against the owner than any attacker ) or that you will be accidentally killed or injured by them. Obviously that’s a risk you take too.