Sad States of America

[stewandbrew777]

I just cannot understand the need for automatic guns or concealable pistols. It’s like people who own them want them for the purpose intended,TO kill. The Ten Commandments state-Thou Shalt not KILL-Anything.

 

[melensdad]

Does ‘normal’ mean statistically in the majority though? :ehh: I’d say a high percentage, if not a majority, of households will have one or more of those higher-risk factors present.

And I’d like to take a gander at whatever evidence or studies you have to back up the point that guns are most often used in self-defence rather than offence.

It occurs to me very simply that no guns in the house means less likely that guns are used EITHER in self defence or against you. Win-win.

Lily, sorry I don’t understand your first question. As for the evidence, there are dozens of studies that show it. Do a websearch for Kleck Gun Control Self Defense, you should get some hits.

But as to your last observation, how is it that if you don’t have a gun in your house and an intruder breaks in, then not having a gun of some sort is a “win” for you? I’m not sure how big of a woman you are, perhaps I wouldn’t want to tangle with you. But me, I’m first going to retreat to my safe room with my family. I’m a sufferer of severe rheumatoid arthritis, no way that I can overwhelm an intruder. In fact, about the only chance I have at self defense is with a gun. By the way, the last time we had an emergency at the house, it took the sheriff over an HOUR to respond because we live well outside of any city limits. Maybe your situation is different, but it should not give you the right or the authority to force your will on me in my situation. You may choose not to have a gun, but you should not take away the rights of others, especially when protecting life is a basic human right.

 

[melensdad]

I just cannot understand the need for automatic guns or concealable pistols. It’s like people who own them want them for the purpose intended,TO kill. The Ten Commandments state-Thou Shalt not KILL-Anything.

it is my Catholic understanding that the Vatican and the Holy Sea is infallible, and as such we loyal Catholics should be supportive of those words that come from our Pope.

                "In a world marked by evil ... the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms". (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in *Origins* 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144).

That same quotation was restated in a letter, on July 11, 2001, to the *International Conference on Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in all its Aspects. * I suspect that the same quotation, used twice, under the direction of the Vatican, should not be considered valid.

Now as a small business owner, even with my business locations located in generally safe areas, I am confronted with criminals in our stores. You seem to indicate that if a criminal comes into my stores I should simply allow them to shoot me, my family and my employees? Yet, the Church sees it a little differently in the document from the Vatican quoted above.

 

[Sheeniac]

Does ‘normal’ mean statistically in the majority though? :ehh: I’d say a high percentage, if not a majority, of households will have one or more of those higher-risk factors present.

And I’d like to take a gander at whatever evidence or studies you have to back up the point that guns are most often used in self-defence rather than offence.

It occurs to me very simply that no guns in the house means less likely that guns are used EITHER in self defence or against you. Win-win.

Do you REALLY believe that MOST households have at least one: criminals, illegal drug use, alcohol abuse or spousal abuse?

REALLY? We must run in VERY different circles.

You think that me not being able to use a gun in self-defense is a GOOD thing??? I am beyond shocked that any remotely reasonable person can say that. You think that a woman not being able to protect a child against a nutcase with a knife is ok?

If you really believe all of that, I cannot think of you as a reasonable person.

BTW - there are a LOT of gun use studies out there. Or do you usually make up your mind about things without solid facts and checking out the “other side”?

One final point - consider the difficulty of a police report being filed for a crime that didn’t happen, for whatever reason. Many times, criminal police call are reported as ‘unfounded’. That makes the stats very elusive. How to measure what is rarely reported…

 

[Sheeniac]

I just cannot understand the need for automatic guns or concealable pistols. It’s like people who own them want them for the purpose intended,TO kill. The Ten Commandments state-Thou Shalt not KILL-Anything.

Many scholars (and lay people) consider it Murder that is being referenced, or you can throw out the notion of a ‘just war’ right out of the window.

I am in favor of concealed carry for self-defense. With regard to automatic weapons, I worry you are actually a journalist in disguise. They make that mistake most often. Fully auto firearms are heavily regulated and require a Class 3 license. Gun control tends to focus on “assault” weapons, which is truly a meaningless term.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

…Why is it so hard for you? It seems that you are saying Christians shouldn’t own guns, and one who does is not a good Christian. Why is that? What perceptions do you have of gun-owners that causes you to think that way?..

I guess I find this all so hard because it seems we are fighting violence with violence.

Now I know somebody will have a handy statistic somewhere that shows guns prevent violence, but considering the nature of the gun - in that it is designed to kill - it just gives me a bad perception of the gun-owner. (Although, I do feel sorry if they are so scared for their safety.)

Has America reached a point of no-return, in that nobody is willing to give up their arms because they are afraid their neighbour won’t? Or do you just get a thrill out of guns?

What happens if somebody attacks you from behind? Or with surprise? How does a gun protect you then?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Being an American, I too am completely in favor of gun control. I always hit what I’m aiming at…now that’s control…

I hope I never upset you enough that you would take aim at me.

 

[melensdad]

I guess I find this all so hard because it seems we are fighting violence with violence.

And what is morally wrong with defending against violence with violence?

Now I know somebody will have a handy statistic somewhere that shows guns prevent violence, but considering the nature of the gun - in that it is designed to kill - it just gives me a bad perception of the gun-owner. (Although, I do feel sorry if they are so scared for their safety.)

I do have guns that are designed to kill. I also have guns that are designed to shoot targets. I even have guns that are designed to celebrate my marriage and are engraved with a blessing saying so. I do not own any guns specifically because I “scared for” my safety. I do think that is a total misconception that many foreigners (my experience is that Canadians and folks from OZ seem to share that misconception about Americans)

Has America reached a point of no-return, in that nobody is willing to give up their arms because they are afraid their neighbour won’t? Or do you just get a thrill out of guns?

Neither. Again I point to the misconceptions that foreigners have about out culture here in America. General George Patton, giving a speech in England, once said, “we a one culture divided by a common language” I tend to totally disagree with him and experience has shown we share one common language but are vastly different cultures.

You seem to believe you understand our culture. But I don’t believe you do. In fact I believe you mis-understand our culture by a great margin. And even the language barrier is often higher than most believe. Say “flickmixer” to an American and they have no clue that you are talking about a common plumbing appliance found over the kitchen sink. Suggest we go get “pissed” and again the American will have a complete look of shock on his face.

What happens if somebody attacks you from behind? Or with surprise? How does a gun protect you then?

You can come up with dozens or hundreds of scenarios where a gun may not be the immediately effective but there are at least as many scenarios where they can be used. But even if you receive a blow from behind, unless it is a fatal blow, you can turn around and use your gun.

 

[mary_bobo]

Many scholars (and lay people) consider it Murder that is being referenced, or you can throw out the notion of a ‘just war’ right out of the window.

I am in favor of concealed carry for self-defense. With regard to automatic weapons, I worry you are actually a journalist in disguise. They make that mistake most often. Fully auto firearms are heavily regulated and require a Class 3 license. Gun control tends to focus on “assault” weapons, which is truly a meaningless term.

What you say about the term “assault weapons” is absolutely true. I hear news readers often use this term and I always want to ask them what that is. They frequently refer to AK47’s. I doubt they would know one if they saw on. It is really a disgrace that supposed news people can insert their own liberal bias and not give the FACTS. That is what they are supposed to do. And the uneducated public falls for it.

 

[melensdad]

It is really a disgrace that supposed news people can insert their own liberal bias and not give the FACTS. That is what they are supposed to do. And the uneducated public falls for it.

Is this not also true about other topics, like when they report about abortion and about Christianity?

 

[goofyjim]

What you say about the term “assault weapons” is absolutely true. I hear news readers often use this term and I always want to ask them what that is. They frequently refer to AK47’s. I doubt they would know one if they saw on. It is really a disgrace that supposed news people can insert their own liberal bias and not give the FACTS. That is what they are supposed to do. And the uneducated public falls for it.

There we go again. The liberal side is always bias but the conservative side isn’t. One can be a Christian whether or not one does or doesn’t own a gun.

 

[melensdad]

One can be a Christian whether or not one does or doesn’t own a gun.

You are absolutely correct on this point. However, what Mary Bobo wrote about the inaccuracies of the media with regards to guns is well documented fact. You seem to dismiss it without any consideration and that is not an appropriate way to debate issues, nor is it particularly enlightened when it comes to learning about things that you may not know much about.

 

[goofyjim]

You are absolutely correct on this point. However, what Mary Bobo wrote about the inaccuracies of the media with regards to guns is well documented fact. You seem to dismiss it without any consideration and that is not an appropriate way to debate issues, nor is it particularly enlightened when it comes to learning about things that you may not know much about.

The conservatives do not always get their facts right either. They shut down debate by saying their’s is the only way. I consider myself a political moderate who leans slightly to the right but I don’t put my full trust in either side.

 

[melensdad]

The conservatives do not always get their facts right either. They shut down debate by saying their’s is the only way.

Specifically in this thread, please show evidence of that allegation.

 

[goofyjim]

Specifically in this thread, please show evidence of that allegation.

Quite simply by attacking any other opinion as simple bias. There is conservative bias as well as liberal. This is a democracy we live in and if the majority want gun control they are free to vote that way.

 

[melensdad]

Quite simply by attacking any other opinion as simple bias. There is conservative bias as well as liberal. This is a democracy we live in and if the majority want gun control they are free to vote that way.

Again you really seem to miss the points don’t you. You specifically said that: "The conservatives do not always get their facts right either." You said that in response to Mary Bobo’s factual statement about the media and its well documented inaccuracies. I asked you for a specific example. You still have yet to provide no example of a so called ‘conservative’ who got their facts wrong in this thread. In fact, all you did was change the subject.

 

[goofyjim]

Again you really seem to miss the points don’t you. You specifically said that: "The conservatives do not always get their facts right either." You said that in response to Mary Bobo’s factual statement about the media and its well documented inaccuracies. I asked you for a specific example. You still have yet to provide no example of a so called ‘conservative’ who got their facts wrong in this thread. In fact, all you did was change the subject.

My apologies, I joined this thread too late but it is my considered opinion that often conservatives make bias judgement in general. That is why I try to stay in the middle and make independent decisions.

 

[melensdad]

My apologies, I joined this thread too late but it is my considered opinion that often conservatives make bias judgement in general. That is why I try to stay in the middle and make independent decisions.

And still you have not backed up your statement with any fact.

That is often the problem with debates. Allegations are made, unsubstantiated.

 

[mary_bobo]

My apologies, I joined this thread too late but it is my considered opinion that often conservatives make bias judgement in general. That is why I try to stay in the middle and make independent decisions.

Conservatives do not own that charge. It is shared by many liberals on this forum. I hope I am never so one-sided that I can’t see when someone I disagree with politically does something worthy of praise. I think you will find the most critical people on the left and they are quite vitriolic in doing so. JMO.

 

[mary_bobo]

There we go again. The liberal side is always bias but the conservative side isn’t. One can be a Christian whether or not one does or doesn’t own a gun./QUOT

Of course you can. Don’t think I ever indicated that you could not. Please do not put words in my mouth. People in media, the news division, are supposed to deliver facts, not suppositions, or their own opinion. They have long forgotten that directive. I was talking about the media, but is you want to claim the mantle as your own, have at it.