Sad that I have to leave the Church

[graceandglory]

I’m sorry, as nice as it would be to believe that, it’s not true. ** There is a specific canon** that says that the children are legitimized when the parents contract a valid marriage. If the Church didn’t consider them illegitimate there would be no such canon. I’ve seen enough notations of ‘illegitimate’ in the baptismal register to know better.

On this, Phemie, I’m going to ask you to prove it.

Marriage is a civil matter and a Sacrament. Both parents were married civilly when they had the children. They believed their marriage was valid for all these years. It is and always will be a valid **civil **marriage and the children will always be legitimate.

I think that a great disservice has been done to this couple in keeping them in the dark for so long, though.

 

[Phemie]

On this, Phemie, I’m going to ask you to prove it.

Marriage is a civil matter and a Sacrament. Both parents were married civilly when they had the children. They believed their marriage was valid for all these years. It is and always will be a valid **civil **marriage and the children will always be legitimate.

I think that a great disservice has been done to this couple in keeping them in the dark for so long, though.

I quoted the relevant canons. Legally the children are legitimate, born of a legal marriage. That has no bearing on church law.

 

[graceandglory]

Can. 1137 The children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate.

From: Catholic Online catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1506

Q: What are the most common questions Catholics have about canon law?
**
Vere: The most common question is definitely the following: “Are my children considered illegitimate if I receive an annulment?”**

**Understandably, people are most sensitive when it comes to their children. **Thus, my co-author, Michael Trueman, and I answer this question last in “Surprised by Canon Law” for precisely this reason. We wanted the answer to this question to be readily accessible whenever our readers encounter a misconception concerning this issue.

Of course, the answer is no. A declaration of nullity declares one’s marriage invalid, not one’s children. Thus, Canon 1137 recognizes the legitimacy of children born to a putative marriage.** A putative marriage is a marriage attempted in good faith by at least one of the parties,** but that later receives a declaration of nullity from the Church.

 

[Phemie]

When I got my annulment 20 years ago, I was given written instructions that specifically stated that the “legitimacy” of any children of the previous marriage was not at issue.

Per canon 1137.

 

[Phemie]

On this, Phemie, I’m going to ask you to prove it.

Marriage is a civil matter and a Sacrament. Both parents were married civilly when they had the children. They believed their marriage was valid for all these years. It is and always will be a valid **civil **marriage and the children will always be legitimate.

I think that a great disservice has been done to this couple in keeping them in the dark for so long, though.

I find it hard to believe that a Catholic can get married in a Presbyterian Church, obviously without a dispensation, and not be aware that the marriage is not considered valid by the Catholic Church.

 

[Maritsa]

Considering that the guy is talking about walking away from the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church because his feelings are hurt that he thinks the Church is saying his children are illigitimate, despite the many professionals who have been cited to the contrary, I think it is very dreadful of you to be arguing this point at this time over this man’s wife and children.

 

[living_water]

This is foolish and prideful. Nobody considers your children illegitimate. Why would you walk away from Jesus because of your refusal to deal with the past? Your wife would prefer to walk away from her knowledge of Christ and go to hell rather than contact her ex-husband? That is absurd. Just obey the Church and get the annulment.

 

[Phemie]

Considering that the guy is talking about walking away from the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church because his feelings are hurt that he thinks the Church is saying his children are illigitimate, despite the many professionals who have been cited to the contrary, I think it is very dreadful of you to be arguing this point at this time over this man’s wife and children.

I’m sorry, what professional have cited anything? I’m the only one who quoted canon law on the topic. He’s obviously been told his children are considered illegitimate and yes it hurt. I’m sorry about that, but not telling him the truth helps how??

 

[Swan]

Considering that the guy is talking about walking away from the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church because his feelings are hurt that he thinks the Church is saying his children are illigitimate, despite the many professionals who have been cited to the contrary, I think it is very dreadful of you to be arguing this point at this time over this man’s wife and children.

I agree. Premie, this is very uncharitable and totally uncalled for.

 

[Phemie]

From: Catholic Online catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1506

Not relevant to the OP’s case since there was no putative marriage between him and his wife. There is a putative marriage between his wife and her ex.

 

[living_water]

Well, I have to take that back. I guess one or two people might think your children are illegitimate.

So what? Let them think it. What difference does it make? If it makes you feel any better, I really do have an “illegitimate” child that was born before I became Catholic. We are not “illegitimate” in the eyes of the Lord, and so I don’t care what anyone else might think. We are blessed to have been received into the body of Christ, and no false pride or shame from some dimwit that would like to look down their nose at me would turn me away from the love of God.

We attend church for God, not men and their opinions.

 

[Zelie_Louis]

Since the OP specifically stated that he is not looking for answers, please cease any speculation about the legitimacy of his children. Arguing points that some of you are uninformed about only confuses him more and possibly damages the situation even worse. Please keep participation on the level of support and encouragement.

EmersonMan, your PMs are turned off, but please contact Catholic Answers and seek out an apologist to discuss your concerns with if you feel your priest is unhelpful. They can help clarify for you the status of your children and exactly what will be expected of your wife during the nullity process.

 

[KCT]

I find it hard to believe that a Catholic can get married in a Presbyterian Church, obviously without a dispensation, and not be aware that the marriage is not considered valid by the Catholic Church.

I was so poorly catechized, that I would not have known.

 

[kettle]

Please don’t leave without seeking counsel from other resources.

 

[jmcrae]

I was so poorly catechized, that I would not have known.

Surely you have a Grandma or an aunty who spent time in a convent, or a nephew, cousin, or uncle who once tried out for the priesthood, who would have refused to attend the wedding on the grounds that it is the contracting of an invalid marriage? Or would you have just thought that they were being hopelessly old-fashioned?

 

[luvlife]

I am so sorry for your situation. I pray that you will take the advice posted here & go for the annulment. Having been Protestant, I can tell you that by leaving you will be giving up so very much - more than you even realize, and for the sake of your dear children, please stay and make it work.

 

[Maritsa]

Surely you have a Grandma or an aunty who spent time in a convent, or a nephew, cousin, or uncle who once tried out for the priesthood, who would have refused to attend the wedding on the grounds that it is the contracting of an invalid marriage? Or would you have just thought that they were being hopelessly old-fashioned?

How blessed you are to have a family so full of faithful Catholics that you can’t believe anyone would be without the wonderful blessings you’ve been given! It speaks to the great job your family did in raising you in the faith.

Not all of us have grandmas, aunties, counsins, or uncles who spent time in convents or seminaries. Not all of us have relatives who are Catholic of any stripe, much less observant or faithful.

Please pray for all of us who are not as blessed as you are. You can see from the opening post the great confusion and pain it can cause to not have a ground in the church. This man is considering taking his children away from the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord because he doesn’t have that grounding that you are so blessed with. Instead of questioning how he could be where he is, he would probably benefit more from your prayers and encouragement.

 

[duskyjewel]

This thread reminds me of my stepmom. She and my dad are civilly married and attend an Assembly of God church. They are not official members of that church, though, because they told the pastor they couldn’t honestly sign the documents stating the restrictions against drinking and such. Guess they don’t like rules no matter where they go.

Anyway, during a recent visit, my stepmom, a former Catholic who had been married in the Church before, referred to how the Catholic Church “booted her out.” It’s hard for me to cause family dissension on such a sensitive topic as religion, but she had no compunction about saying that in front of me, a serious, practicing Catholic, so I sucked up my courage and spoke in defense of the Church. I said, “Hey, let’s be honest here. You left because you didn’t like the rules.” She admitted that that was true, but then went on and on about how unreasonable the whole annulment thing is, and that she was not going to make her children illegitimate. I tried to explain all that to her, but she is not willing to hear it in her bitterness. They both got on me pretty hard. But I knew I would not be able to forgive myself for my cowardice if I had not spoken in defense of the truth. The reason she calls it being “booted out” is that the Monsignor she talked to told her that if she re-married without an annulment, she would not be able to receive the Eucharist until she had rectified the situation. Whether that be annulment, living as brother and sister, or ending the living situation altogether. So, because he told her the truth when she asked, he kicked her out.

I think people want to see things a certain way. When you try to give them the truth, they will not accept it because that puts responsibility back on them and they can’t indulge in blaming others anymore.

OP, I am sorry you are so sad and that you have gotten unhelpful advice. Please call the marriage tribunal of your diocese and get more accurate information. Priests don’t know everything, and sometimes even the best person doesn’t explain things clearly. Get expert help from the people who do this everyday! Please don’t abandon your home.

 

[KCT]

Surely you have a Grandma or an aunty who spent time in a convent, or a nephew, cousin, or uncle who once tried out for the priesthood, who would have refused to attend the wedding on the grounds that it is the contracting of an invalid marriage? Or would you have just thought that they were being hopelessly old-fashioned?

None of the above. I was catechized in the 60’s and 70’s and learned very little of what I should have.

I know now, but had no clue 23 years ago. (and my mom has said under no circumstances would she not attend her child’s wedding)

 

[jmcrae]

How blessed you are to have a family so full of faithful Catholics that you can’t believe anyone would be without the wonderful blessings you’ve been given! It speaks to the great job your family did in raising you in the faith.

Actually, I’m a convert, and the only Catholic in my family. But I’ve read one or two dime novels in which the Catholic character who was trying to get married outside the Church was shunned by his aunty. (Of course, she is always portrayed as a big bad meanie who is completely out of touch with reality, etc. But still, unless you live in a hermetically sealed box, it’s difficult to imagine how one would not encounter this information.)

This man is considering taking his children away from the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord because he doesn’t have that grounding that you are so blessed with. Instead of questioning how he could be where he is, he would probably benefit more from your prayers and encouragement.

Actually, it’s due to my complete lack of grounding that I take time every day to log on to this site and learn as much as I can about the faith that I profess to hold.