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FaithofAbraham
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In John 9:9 the blind man also used the same phrase, ego eimi. But it doesn’t make him God either.
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abucs
Guest
FOA,
‘I AM’ is a claim of divinity.
Another example - In Johns Gospels when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus they asked for the Nazarena. Jesus came forward and said ‘I AM’.
And they fell to the ground- why ?
In another gospel the Jewish Sanhedrin asks Jesus who he is and he respondes ‘I AM’. The chief Rabbi then tear his clothes and pronounces guilt - why ?
Any study of the words ‘I AM’ in the Jewish context will EASILY refer to a claim of divinity.
‘I AM’ is a claim of divinity.
Another example - In Johns Gospels when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus they asked for the Nazarena. Jesus came forward and said ‘I AM’.
And they fell to the ground- why ?
In another gospel the Jewish Sanhedrin asks Jesus who he is and he respondes ‘I AM’. The chief Rabbi then tear his clothes and pronounces guilt - why ?
Any study of the words ‘I AM’ in the Jewish context will EASILY refer to a claim of divinity.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
How does that related to being first begotten of the dead? Jesus was not first to be resurrected so it doesn’t refer to that.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Well maybe the blind man in John 9:9 was God too then.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, your sense of time is one that only we humans can think of. God has always existed. Therefore the Son has always existed. Just because God created the Son doesn’t mean he was created at some later time. The Son always was created. Otherwise this would mean that God created a part of Himself at some other time.
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planten
Guest
Paul taught all about trinity. There is no news about trinity in the OT or the Quran. But the church has spread legs all around in many directions. That is having Jesus as god and as man and as prophet. So we muslims are helpless in dealing with the christians and their trinity.Thank you
The church has three gods and at the same time one god. That is travelling in two different directions. If church has three gods then why they talk about one god. If they have only one god then why they speak about three gods? We Muslims are quite happy about Jesus and his mother. We believe that Jesus was the Promised Messiah. But we do not believe that he was god.
We have (know) all about Jesus and his mother and the disciples in Quran. We do not have anything about paul in the Quran. We also see the Old Testament and find no news about paul. We do not find any mention of paul in the New Testament (four gospels). Jesus did never predict about paul. And Jesus never appeared to any of his beloved well known apostles to tell them that paul had converted.
But paul makes a major portion of the NT bible. Why? Is he more important than the disciples? I feel that Muslims will never believe in paul but they will believe in all the good things about Jesus.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
You are taking this way out of context. In the context that Christ said I Am, he was saying he was God. This man said:
“But he himself insisted, I am the man” (John 9:9)
He was saying that he was the blind man that the people knew and not another person to prove that he had been healed by a miracle. And if we went by your definition of saying I Am then everyday people would be claiming to be God. This was not originally said in English so it doesn’t translate perfectly. And based on the crowds reaction Jesus Christ was really claiming to be God.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
What? If God created the Son then God had to exist before the Son in order to create the Son.
Unless maybe the Son created himself as the Father who was also the Son who always existed as the Father who was always God as the Father and the Son who created each other as Brothers of the Sons of the Fathers who were Sons yet Fathers to each other. :hypno:
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FaithofAbraham
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Muslims don’t believe in St. Paul’s teachings because he contradicts their beliefs.
The Holy Trinity is addressed or at least hinted at in the Old Testament. St. Paul did not make up the Holy Trinity, in fact we have proof of Christ saying it Himself:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)
Furthermore your belief in what we believe about in the Holy Trinity is wrong. We believe:
“We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons” (CCC 253)
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abucs
Guest
FOA,
in that context there was no falling to the ground or tearing of clothes pronouncing guilt or any controversy of any kind.
The question still remains unanswered by you- what explains those reactions when Jesus says ‘I AM’ ?
My invitation to you to give an honest study to the words ‘I AM’ in a Jewish conext is still unanswered by you.
You seem to ignore the obvious and go off on your own with theories of Roman Gods and Jesus being taken just before death.
in that context there was no falling to the ground or tearing of clothes pronouncing guilt or any controversy of any kind.
The question still remains unanswered by you- what explains those reactions when Jesus says ‘I AM’ ?
My invitation to you to give an honest study to the words ‘I AM’ in a Jewish conext is still unanswered by you.
You seem to ignore the obvious and go off on your own with theories of Roman Gods and Jesus being taken just before death.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
That’s in English not Greek, and furthermore, it doesn’t matter. You are taking it way out of context. No one thought that this man was claiming to be God we all know he was claiming to be himself. Christ was claiming to be God.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
ONE GUY ASKS
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?JESUS SAYS TO THE CROWD
:grouphug: John 8:54-57 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
JESUS TURNS TO THE FIRST GUY
**John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.**
JESUS PUTS HIMSELF BEFORE AND GREATER THAN ABRAHAM AS MELCHIZEDEK
And that’s about how all these go, they are too vague to build a monster religion and system of belief. As I showed Jesus is clearly talking about being High Priest in relation to Abraham. The notion of being God is just coming way out of the blue from nowhere, it’s not even answering the question asked of him.
The way I’m telling you does answer the question. Jesus was sent here to heal us by taking our prayers to God to make atonement for us as this High Priest. That’s his main role, that’s how he saves us. But it is so buried under all this incarnation stuff that most Christians I talk to don’t even know who or what Melchizedek is or what he does.
So, there it is.
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FaithofAbraham
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Well it does matter, if the blind man says I AM same as Jesus does that’s not a very compelling case for claims of godhood by either of them. That’s just your religious tradition saying that it only means Jehovah, some tidbit a Christian found way back when and massaged into a doctrine. It means what it says.
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abucs
Guest
Christianity is not a monster religion built on only ‘I AM’.
But is does seem that you have no answer for this obvious claim of divinity and no explanation for the reactions it caused.
It is obvious your other claims of Jesus being taken by God on the cross and Christianity coming from some Roman source are your own theories. Not even Muhammad said that explicitly. As a ‘final revelation from God’, you think he may have mentioned it.
Perhaps you are the final, better, more complete revelation FOA ?
OK that’s it for me, i’ll keep looking for your explanations to ‘I AM’ and the Jewish understanding of that, and the biblical reaction it cause among the Jews when Jesus claimed it.
But is does seem that you have no answer for this obvious claim of divinity and no explanation for the reactions it caused.
It is obvious your other claims of Jesus being taken by God on the cross and Christianity coming from some Roman source are your own theories. Not even Muhammad said that explicitly. As a ‘final revelation from God’, you think he may have mentioned it.
Perhaps you are the final, better, more complete revelation FOA ?
OK that’s it for me, i’ll keep looking for your explanations to ‘I AM’ and the Jewish understanding of that, and the biblical reaction it cause among the Jews when Jesus claimed it.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Again you skirted the answer. If Christ was only saying that he was greater than Abraham, I doubt the people would wanted to kill him, however If he was saying He was God, then that would have given the people motivation to kill him.ONE GUY ASKS
JESUS SAYS TO THE CROWD
:grouphug: John 8:54-57 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
JESUS TURNS TO THE FIRST GUY
**
JESUS PUTS HIMSELF BEFORE AND GREATER THAN ABRAHAM AS MELCHIZEDEK
And that’s about how all these go, they are too vague to build a monster religion and system of belief. As I showed Jesus is clearly talking about being High Priest in relation to Abraham. The notion of being God is just coming way out of the blue from nowhere, it’s not even answering the question asked of him.
The way I’m telling you does answer the question. Jesus was sent here to heal us by taking our prayers to God to make atonement for us as this High Priest. That’s his main role, that’s how he saves us. But it is so buried under all this incarnation stuff that most Christians I talk to don’t even know who or what Melchizedek is or what he does.
So, there it is.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
That is not the only instance of Christ saying He is God, it’s just one of them. And some random person did not message this into a doctrine. Every early Christian father believed this, as did the Apostles who actually knew Christ. This is why we believe this because the Apostles continued the Tradition that Christ instituted on Earth.
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FaithofAbraham
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Sure they would, Abraham is the father of the Jews. That would be as bad to them as naming a teddy bear after Mohammed.
But God made sure Hebrews is there in the Bible to tell us that Jesus was talking about being Melchizedek, the priest-king of Jerusalem as Messiah with the bread and wine of the New Covenant that makes atonement for our sins with God for the House of Abraham, being of the seed of Isaac and Jews in Jesus reconciled with the seed of Ishmael and Gentiles in Ishmael, to receive everlasting life forever with God in Heaven.
That’s the whole New Covenant right there in a nutshell.
Sadly buried under a mountain of Gentile fluff built around two little words.
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viper78912
Guest
Jesus Christ Died for the world. (John3:16). He did not Die for any religion.
Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have both prayed in the mosque. Pope Benedict XVI kissed the holy Quran.
Jesus Prayed,” That all may be one….” (John17.11).
Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have both prayed in the mosque. Pope Benedict XVI kissed the holy Quran.
Jesus Prayed,” That all may be one….” (John17.11).
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holdencaulfield
Guest
This is not the only thing that Christ says that proves he was God. There are many other things. The example that you use from Hebrews is using symbolism to compare Christ to Melchizedek as the high priest. How many of God’s high priests did he say this to:
“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for you feet?” (Hebrews 1:13)
How do you explain this?
Here is another quote of Jesus claiming to be God:
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
This is really obvious, but I’m sure that you will manage to take this out of context.
And you should be ashamed of the way your governments handled the issue about the teddy bear. I agree that it was offensive to you r faith. I agree that it was wrong. However the teacher was trying to embrace your culture and do something nice. You should have told her what she did was wrong, and forgive her.
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