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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I could care less about calling anything Mohammed, it’s just a name. Plus I live in California. Like, not all Catholics live in Italy either, I assume…
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holdencaulfield
Guest
I was just making an observation.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
You said that God can do anything, why not God became human? It should be easy for God. It is not magic at all. George W. Bush can disguise himself to be any American Caucasian by all of his money, but no American Caucasian can disguise George W. Bush and enter the Oval Office passing through all the security guards.
S
swariffin
Guest
Why not?
S
swariffin
Guest
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
St Stephen was the first to follow Jesus’ example, for sure, as well as many other saints/martyrs. Well, the way of death does not have to be the same anyway.
If you believe God can do anything, why not God becoming human? You are reducing what God can do into your way of thinking. And, you make another step of making accusation by comparing into demigods? Does God has to follow your way of thinking for you to understand?
S
swariffin
Guest
Except contradicting Himself. God cannot contradict Himself, otherwise, no guarantee that God will keep his promise.
S
swariffin
Guest
The other possibility is unable to understand.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Of course God can do anything, but really, why with Jesus? The only good argument for why would be to see what it feels like to be a human, but can’t God feel how we all feel anytime He wants anyway? Can’t He just tap into our consciousness and experience everything each one of us experiences at any time?
But all the good arguments against it I’ve made, for me…
*]I believe Jesus is firstborn of David and Bathsheba died for David’s sin.
*]It diminishes Jesus’ faith by making him a God that knows for sure he is going to live no matter what, rather than a man who just has great faith that God will come through for him.
*]The idea of a Son coming from a Father God automatically makes the Son lesser than the Father and not always existing with the Father which is not a Trinity of one God of equal parts, but a family of Gods of different natures in a pantheon called Trinity which is Arianism and polytheism, not monotheism of no other gods but God. So it is not only confusing but not credible as a monotheistic belief.
*]It obscures the true role of Jesus as High Priest who makes atonement for our sins, and King like David who rules with God’s power, but only because God allows it, which is what the prophecies say Messiah is, a Suffering Servant of God – again not an equal to God.
*]I believe Jesus is made God over us anyway which does not require him to be God, but just a man God trusts more than any other with all that power. So it takes nothing away from his glory, it only adds to it because he was able to accomplish all that being only human, and not a God.
And anything else I’ve said about it. Trinity is just an idea I don’t believe in or find believable or agreeable to everything else said about Messiah in the Bible.
And it is too easily shaken, a house built on sand for people like me who just do not see the point in devoting their hearts and minds and lives to something they don’t really have faith in, and when I see how it confuses others and keeps them away from God, especially the Jews who have grown to despise Christianity and all it represents, and sadly, their own Messiah who is the only one who can save them.
I mean yeah, we can go back and forth, tit for tat, but there’s not really anything new I can add to this particular issue.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
Don’t think that God the Father became man, but it was Word of God, (whom with respect to human is God) became man. With respect to God, there is no such word of god or spirit of god. With respect to God, there is God only. The early Church father figured that such word of God became human, and the word of God equals to God (with respect to human).
Supposed you receive a written order/instruction from your boss (provided there is a legitimate signature and perhaps a corporate stamp/chop). Do you follow the instruction? if you do, do you obey a piece of paper or obey your boss?
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abucs
Guest
FOA, i’m reading your previous bible quotes
“John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad”.
Notice Jesus didn’t say my father Abraham, or our Father Abraham.
Another one of your bible quotes :
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Abraham was 1000 years before King David. How could Christ be ‘I AM’ before Abraham and David ?
We know from the OT Genesis when Abraham first encountered God he fell down prostrate before Him and then Abraham asked - ‘who are you ?’ The reply that came back from God was ‘I AM’.
It’s pretty clear cut.
I see from your new list of why you don’t like Jesus being divine that you have stopped quoting scripture. The reasons you give are personal. Being personal i can’t challenge them. They are what you think of the redemption story.
But as soon as you start quoting the bible to try and say that they don’t claim Jesus’ divinity, then i have to object.
Good Luck.
“John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad”.
Notice Jesus didn’t say my father Abraham, or our Father Abraham.
Another one of your bible quotes :
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Abraham was 1000 years before King David. How could Christ be ‘I AM’ before Abraham and David ?
We know from the OT Genesis when Abraham first encountered God he fell down prostrate before Him and then Abraham asked - ‘who are you ?’ The reply that came back from God was ‘I AM’.
It’s pretty clear cut.
I see from your new list of why you don’t like Jesus being divine that you have stopped quoting scripture. The reasons you give are personal. Being personal i can’t challenge them. They are what you think of the redemption story.
But as soon as you start quoting the bible to try and say that they don’t claim Jesus’ divinity, then i have to object.
Good Luck.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Jesus wasn’t saying his father wasn’t Abraham too, that’s how he received Abraham’s promise, through Isaac under Abraham. While David’s promise was for Jesus to be Melchizedek above Abraham. So Jesus is both over and under, as son of Abraham and as son of David.
Galatians 3:29-4:2 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Jesus would be grater and older in the sense that his office of High Priest was there ministering before Abram became Abraham, and higher in stature than Abraham.
I don’t see where God said simply I AM to Abram (Abraham). But the discussion in John parallels what is said about Melchizedek being greater than Abraham, Levi, etc. in Hebrews.
What do you think is most important about Jesus, that Jesus be incarnate as God?
Or that Jesus is High Priest like Melchizedek who brings our prayer offerings to God so we may receive atonement and be forgiven of our sins?
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abucs
Guest
For me personally it is that God came as the atonement for our sins in the place of Israel as the perfect sacrifice.
I feel very humbled and respectful for such a gesture and it speaks strongly to me that i cannot ignore it.
It tells me that God is not a far away uncaring being but one that is here with us and shares our suffering. I cannot help but praise that action. There are not many actions that can bind one to another but that is surely one for me. It indwells a love and respect for God in me, an understanding of suffering and a call to be holy, like God.
Jesus quoting from the Old Testament psalm prayers on the cross from his ‘My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ (psalm 22) to ‘Into your hands i commend my spirit’ (psalm 31) is very powerful for me.
For a thousand years the Jews would have prayed these psalms to God. In reading them the psalms speak of great suffering and humiliation but they praise God and trust he will deliver them.
If you read psalm 22 it is almost as if God has come to earth in the form of Jesus to share with them in their suffering as an answer to their prayers. That answer is that ‘I am with you in your suffering’. There is a lesson in suffering and it is so important that God comes to suffer with us to bind us to him in an eternal covenant. When Jesus is on the cross he says the prayers back to Israel and to God (yes himself) as the perfect sacrifice. He takes on the form of Israel (for me) to give the perfect sacrifice that they cannot fulfill themselves and leaves an eternal covenant between God and man on earth.
The following psalm, psalm 32 then speaks about the forgivesness of sin.
The institution of the eucharist, where to Catholics belief, we come into contact with God as the new manna from Heaven, Jesus Christ, has a strong call to be faithful and worthy and to renew thanks and humilty constantly through this sacrifice.
For us, he comes not as a burning bush for Abraham but as bread. We beleive we receive God each Sunday in memory and union with God of the cross. Such a humble presence of God as bread, underlines his humility and our pride and inadequacy which causes us (hopefully) to re-asses our lives and bow down in all humility before God and amend our lives.
If Jesus is not God, then we don’t receive God and that response is gone together with so much of our relationship with God through the story of the cross.
Gods humbleness in his action (from Catholic belief) elevates humilty and self sacrifice and obediance for me more than words could ever do. And God being involved as the perfect sacrifice is central to my response.
I understand from your posts that this is a negative for you. And i understand from your view that the nature of God and his substition of himself for Israel is not accepted. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
On a technical point, i still think Jesus can act in the role of Melchizedek, as he has come not only as God but in place for the Israelite nation to be a perfect sacrifice in their place.
His actions for me indwell an eternal thanks, praise, awe, humility, kindness, respect and admiration in a way that no other action could do. It is this response which opens up connection with God in an eternal relationship through Jesus.
I respect your right to have other views.
I feel very humbled and respectful for such a gesture and it speaks strongly to me that i cannot ignore it.
It tells me that God is not a far away uncaring being but one that is here with us and shares our suffering. I cannot help but praise that action. There are not many actions that can bind one to another but that is surely one for me. It indwells a love and respect for God in me, an understanding of suffering and a call to be holy, like God.
Jesus quoting from the Old Testament psalm prayers on the cross from his ‘My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ (psalm 22) to ‘Into your hands i commend my spirit’ (psalm 31) is very powerful for me.
For a thousand years the Jews would have prayed these psalms to God. In reading them the psalms speak of great suffering and humiliation but they praise God and trust he will deliver them.
If you read psalm 22 it is almost as if God has come to earth in the form of Jesus to share with them in their suffering as an answer to their prayers. That answer is that ‘I am with you in your suffering’. There is a lesson in suffering and it is so important that God comes to suffer with us to bind us to him in an eternal covenant. When Jesus is on the cross he says the prayers back to Israel and to God (yes himself) as the perfect sacrifice. He takes on the form of Israel (for me) to give the perfect sacrifice that they cannot fulfill themselves and leaves an eternal covenant between God and man on earth.
The following psalm, psalm 32 then speaks about the forgivesness of sin.
The institution of the eucharist, where to Catholics belief, we come into contact with God as the new manna from Heaven, Jesus Christ, has a strong call to be faithful and worthy and to renew thanks and humilty constantly through this sacrifice.
For us, he comes not as a burning bush for Abraham but as bread. We beleive we receive God each Sunday in memory and union with God of the cross. Such a humble presence of God as bread, underlines his humility and our pride and inadequacy which causes us (hopefully) to re-asses our lives and bow down in all humility before God and amend our lives.
If Jesus is not God, then we don’t receive God and that response is gone together with so much of our relationship with God through the story of the cross.
Gods humbleness in his action (from Catholic belief) elevates humilty and self sacrifice and obediance for me more than words could ever do. And God being involved as the perfect sacrifice is central to my response.
I understand from your posts that this is a negative for you. And i understand from your view that the nature of God and his substition of himself for Israel is not accepted. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
On a technical point, i still think Jesus can act in the role of Melchizedek, as he has come not only as God but in place for the Israelite nation to be a perfect sacrifice in their place.
His actions for me indwell an eternal thanks, praise, awe, humility, kindness, respect and admiration in a way that no other action could do. It is this response which opens up connection with God in an eternal relationship through Jesus.
I respect your right to have other views.
P
planten
Guest
**Swariffin, please understand that in Islam we also believe that God can do everything. But there is a difference. The real words in Quran say “Allah can do everything that he wills or wishes (likes)”. That is the true translation of the verse of Quran.
So there are things that He wills (likes) to do and there are things that He does not like to do. He has told us about some of those things. So it is no use ascribing everything to God that He would do that. I mean you would believe that God can tell a lie too or make another God like Himself.
One has to be careful about such beliefs. There is a very small difference in the wording but it means a lot.**
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planten
Guest
G-d is not a man. So, G-d cannot become a man.
** That is true. Swariffin, you have to keep sense of the categories. There is a God and there are humans and there are animals and there are angels and Jinn and what not !!
You should not mix up the things. According to your theory God could become a dog too !! Will you believe it?? Please think.
The truth is “God is not a man and man is not a God”.**
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
I think that the problem with this discussion is the current issue:
As Christians we believe the Bible to be true
The Muslims who have commented believe the Bible to be wrong and the Koran to be true.
Because there is such a difference in beliefs here we will never be able to solve this argument by quoting Scripture.
As Christians we believe the Bible to be true
The Muslims who have commented believe the Bible to be wrong and the Koran to be true.
Because there is such a difference in beliefs here we will never be able to solve this argument by quoting Scripture.
A
abucs
Guest
Hi holdencaulfield,
120 posts from Jan 21 ? You have been busy.
Yeah, i have only been on here for a short time but am coming to the conclusion that dialogue on most topics between the people you define will be a big waste of time so i think i’ll avoid it from now on.
There seems to be no real common ground to discuss most issues that are being raised IMHO.
Respect.
120 posts from Jan 21 ? You have been busy.
Yeah, i have only been on here for a short time but am coming to the conclusion that dialogue on most topics between the people you define will be a big waste of time so i think i’ll avoid it from now on.
There seems to be no real common ground to discuss most issues that are being raised IMHO.
Respect.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
I agree, if you don’t believe in the Bible you can’t really argue with people.Hi holdencaulfield,
120 posts from Jan 21 ? You have been busy.
Yeah, i have only been on here for a short time but am coming to the conclusion that dialogue on most topics between the people you define will be a big waste of time so i think i’ll avoid it from now on.
There seems to be no real common ground to discuss most issues that are being raised IMHO.
Respect.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Planten,
I believe that Islam teachs the follower to honor God too, such as the mandatory praying 5 times a day at specific time. So much that you are required to leave whatever you are doing in order to pray.
I as the Christian should learn such a good practice myself. Although we are required to pray as many time as possible, but still the liberty of the time chosen is not limited. But, I admit myself that I don’t even pray 5 times a day. Jesus, forgive me.
I am just saying that we should not think that God should do in accordance with our thinking. It is as simple as that. But, for sure, I don’t believe that God tell lies or deceive human.
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