Saint Paul and Islam

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Rueben, you give mohammed too much credit if you think he picked and chose his stories on purpose. mohammed was illiterate and a pagan.

What stories he did put in the koran were probably ones that he heard. When he was younger he didn’t totally hate the Jews. it was in his later years when he hated them because they were not going for his new religion.
I agree with you and the rest of your post. Thanks for saying them anyway. 🙂

I am responding to Muslims. I was only bending backward to accomodate their reasonings and to use it in the argument. I figure that whatever reasoning we use here, there is no way that Paul did not and was not a follower of Jesus, as much as the rest of the disciples were.
Like I said in a previous post - I think mohammed had something physical happen to him between his Meccan years and Medina years. It went from a relative peaceful time to pure violence. (I said I think it was temporal epilepsy with a narcissistic personality of which we have seen in our own times brings out the killer instinct in cult leaders)
Do you have anything concrete on this?

The only reason why I think Mohammad went violent was becaues of power. Now he was more powerful and his true color showed. He was just an uneducated, plain gangster and violence is his mother tongue. So it came naturally for him. Not surprising at all.
As for Paul, or any apostle, he could have cared less. Being a pagan he didn’t know or understand the parts the apostles play in Christianity. (at least this is my opinion on this)

You want to know about mohammed - read ‘The Life and Religion of mohammed’. don’t worry, any of the readings I suggest will never convert you. It will only let you ‘know your enemy’. Even reading the koran will never convert you unless you are forced from childhood to convert, or a psychopath. yes, I don’t see how any sane human being could convert to islam if they didn’t have a sword to their throats and wanted to live, hence this is where the sword plays such an important role in islam.
Since his source was limited, I think he did not know Paul at all nor the theology that the apostles taught.

The reason why modern day Muslims have problem with Paul is because of their knowledge of the NT which put Mohammad in a very bad light. Muslims should acknowledge this discrepancy by Mohammad. But they can’t, otherwise they would not be Muslims.

God bless.
 
Do I have anything concrete - No. I explained it more fully in a previous post. What I used to say - after I have read more than 50 books on some aspect of islam, the koran and about mohammed also is that mohammed surely had epilepsy.

So, time passed and I have read about psychopathy and was wondering if he had that - well, when I read more into that I said, No he was not a psychopath.

So, some more time passed. And I saw this series called, ‘Most Evil’, on cult leaders who kill. And the first one that was described (he was the Japanese cult leader - I cannot remember his name - who led his followers to put sarin gas on the subway), pretty much got me interested to watch the rest of the show. This explained that temporal epilepsy and a narcisstic personality combined has caused this sort of behavior, the same behavior that mohammed had. A Cult leader, angry because he was laughed at, who killed and did all the other things I described in previous posts to get revenge, but also saw ‘visions’.

Why don’t you start doing some reading - go back on my previous posts and read the book that I suggest and go over the websites?

As to this statement, “I am responding to Muslims. I was only bending backward to accomodate their reasonings and to use it in the argument.” Why bend backwards to appease someone? You certainly are not doing that for me. I am of your own religion and background. Are you afraid of them?! Why? You are anonymous. This is the sort of behavior that they want while they do nothing in return.
 
I don’t follow any imams. And if you aren’t going to believe that Jesus killed his playmates from apocrypha or that Jesus is roasting in hell from the Jewish Talmud why are you people so hot to condemn Mohammed on rumor when he only had good things to say about Jesus and Mary?

Quran 19:19-21 He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

All he did was try to untangle the horrid mess of Trinity that no one can explain or understand, that has God mating with a mortal woman to produce Himself as His own son like some kind of bizarre incestuous nightmare that belongs in Greek mythology books, not in the simplicity and grace of the story of Jesus, a mere man who rose from the bottom to be the greatest man of all.

Matthew 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 👋
I have to agree with you on this one, FoA. I do have a biography of Muhammad which I believe to be respectful to the truth, and it sure doesn’t mention a thing like that. One should go with what is actually known rather than about rumours… even though in some cases, the line is not easily visible…
That being said, because certain Catholics would venture to say things like that doesn’t mean that all Catholics or even a majority of them would say those things! On this we can also agree, can’t we?
 
Sure I did.

So it is because he said he was greater than Abraham that Jews wanted to kill him even more, it is like saying you are greater than Mohammed to Muslims, since Abraham is the father of the Jews.
Jews: Are you greater than Abraham?

Jesus: I am.
Well, can you answer me to this question, maybe it will be even more precise: Why did the group of Jews, on hearing that Jesus was saying: " Verily, verily, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM "… why did they want to stone him?
By the way, I don’t read anywhere that he was merely answering “I AM” to the question about being greater than Abraham… I mean, in the verse from the Gospel according to John which you are quoting!
 
Well, can you answer me to this question, maybe it will be even more precise: Why did the group of Jews, on hearing that Jesus was saying: " Verily, verily, I tell you, before Abraham was, I AM "… why did they want to stone him?
By the way, I don’t read anywhere that he was merely answering “I AM” to the question about being greater than Abraham… I mean, in the verse from the Gospel according to John which you are quoting!
Well look, they wanted to kill him even before he said that, so it’s an error to synthesize an argument like, “Jesus said I AM and they wanted to kill him because he said he is God.”

That’s not why, they wanted to kill Jesus because they didn’t like that he preached they were a wicked generation. Nothing to do with saying he was God.

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
 
Well, to this comment, ‘We have to remember R Not that most muslims are decent people, but the evangelising nutters make no sense at all and seem to be in a frenzy to convert people without really examining the character of ‘God’s messenger’.’
Are they? When they think that beating, torturing and/or killing their women if they do something that the man doesn’t like is ok? When they worry more about their image than stopping the jihadists?
Take a look at the founders - Christ vs mohammed. I don’t have to tell you about Christ, but mohammed tortured, killed, raped, stole, lied, enslaved and kidnapped for ransom. This is what you compare Christ to.
If you want to compare Christianity to islam - read a book called, ‘Religion of Peace? Why Christianity is and islam isn’t’. It says it better than I ever could. Start with the founders and go from there.
If these muslims are so good, ask them why they can believe in a guy who tortured, killed, raped, stole, lied, enslaved and kidnapped for ransom and would pass people that they captured after battle as booty.
Now where do you see Mohammed doing ALL those bad things and condoning them? Do you read it in the Quran? Especially raping?:confused: 😦
 
Now, FaithOfAbraham… What do you make of this scene from the Christ’s Passion, when the High Priest Caiaphas asked Jesus: " I summon you to tell us: Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?"
Jesus: “I am, and from now on you shall see the Son of Man coming with glory on the clouds of heaven.”
The High Priest Caiaphas then tore his vestments (sorry if I am not using the proper word here, I usually read the New Testament in French, and I am trying to translate as properly as I can) and said: “Do we need any more witnesses. You have just heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They answered (it’s not mentioned that they all did): " He deserves death!"
Here, what was the blasphemy, tell me? (By the way, how can we be so sure that we would not have said the same thing had we been there and on the Sanhedrin?)
 
Now where do you see Mohammed doing ALL those bad things and condoning them? Do you read it in the Quran? Especially raping?:confused: 😦
I’m sure there was some rape, torture, etc. going on. Still goes on today among US soldiers and all military forces.

So while it would be naive and dishonest to say there none of that going on, it’s still pretty lame to act like Muslims are the only people who did these things, and that it must be the fault of the Quran or something.

I also think it’s lame when people blame the NT for antisemitism and things like that too.

Not to mention the racism I’ve seen in this thread, like Arabs are somehow an inferior race of people. Arabs are all different religions, not just Islam.
 
I’m sure there was some rape, torture, etc. going on. Still goes on today among US soldiers and all military forces.

So while it would be naive and dishonest to say there none of that going on, it’s still pretty lame to act like Muslims are the only people who did these things, and that it must be the fault of the Quran or something.

I also think it’s lame when people blame the NT for antisemitism and things like that too.

Not to mention the racism I’ve seen in this thread, like Arabs are somehow an inferior race of people. Arabs are all different religions, not just Islam.
My question remains: is raping actually condoned by the Quran? Somebody, please answer me…
 
Now, FaithOfAbraham… What do you make of this scene from the Christ’s Passion, when the High Priest Caiaphas asked Jesus: " I summon you to tell us: Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?"
Jesus: “I am, and from now on you shall see the Son of Man coming with glory on the clouds of heaven.”
The High Priest Caiaphas then tore his vestments (sorry if I am not using the proper word here, I usually read the New Testament in French, and I am trying to translate as properly as I can) and said: “Do we need any more witnesses. You have just heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They answered (it’s not mentioned that they all did): " He deserves death!"
Here, what was the blasphemy, tell me? (By the way, how can we be so sure that we would not have said the same thing had we been there and on the Sanhedrin?)
If a prophet claims to be speaking for God, and he is declared a false prophet, then what he speaks can be declared blasphemy. It’s not an automatic ticket to saying he claimed he is God, it could be about anything.

Like “God told me you need to eat your spinach.” If I’m lying about that, that’s blasphemy, attributing something false to God.
 
I’m sure there was some rape, torture, etc. going on. Still goes on today among US soldiers and all military forces.

So while it would be naive and dishonest to say there none of that going on, it’s still pretty lame to act like Muslims are the only people who did these things, and that it must be the fault of the Quran or something.

I also think it’s lame when people blame the NT for antisemitism and things like that too.

Not to mention the racism I’ve seen in this thread, like Arabs are somehow an inferior race of people. Arabs are all different religions, not just Islam.
Sometimes, I think that because some Muslims are almost impossible to talk to about religion, many Christians try to discredit Muhammid so as to try to get an opportunity as to why Christianity is a valid choice. They feel that if they can show that Muhammid was no role model, but jesus was perfect, it is a plus for us.

I dislike any form of racism or prejudice. All Christians should.

One issue that Westerners seem to have is that you cannot separate the people, the governement, and Islam in many countries. For example, we talk about how women are treated unfairly in Saudi Arabia. Yet, the people there seem cool with it, and the government gladly does whatever they want and both sides claim Islam allows it.
 
My question remains: is raping actually condoned by the Quran? Somebody, please answer me…
I’ve never seen it. All I’ve seen is that you can marry enemy women you find trustworthy, and as long as you can care for them properly.
 
My question remains: is raping actually condoned by the Quran? Somebody, please answer me…
This site has some information. Note that according to it, Rape may be allowed at times according to some Hadiths. This site denies the validity of all hadiths.

submission.org/women/rape.html

This site is anti-Islam, so bear that in mind. It does present the possibilty, but again, this may be a slanted message.
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_slaves.htm

Now, there is some dispute over if a husband is allowed to take his own wife against her will. This site has information about the rights of women, but it seems kind of slanted anti-Islam.
peacefaq.com/women.html
 
Sometimes, I think that because some Muslims are almost impossible to talk to about religion, many Christians try to discredit Muhammid so as to try to get an opportunity as to why Christianity is a valid choice. They feel that if they can show that Muhammid was no role model, but jesus was perfect, it is a plus for us.

I dislike any form of racism or prejudice. All Christians should.

One issue that Westerners seem to have is that you cannot separate the people, the governement, and Islam in many countries. For example, we talk about how women are treated unfairly in Saudi Arabia. Yet, the people there seem cool with it, and the government gladly does whatever they want and both sides claim Islam allows it.
Sure, but it’s like here in the USA we act like we’re so advanced yet not too long ago women couldn’t vote. I was alive when blacks still couldn’t even eat in the same places as whites. And a lot of other things. Still not as bad here in recent times as it is there, but I think it all boils down to that we’ve had a more Hellenized culture in the west for a long time now, compared to the barbarians. Christianity took on a decidedly western flavor when Rome started administrating it. Whereas you go to some sections in Israel and the Jews throw rocks at women if they are dressed too provocatively.

So I don’t think you can really blame it on race or religion, but regional culture.
 
Sure, but it’s like here in the USA we act like we’re so advanced yet not too long ago women couldn’t vote. I was alive when blacks still couldn’t even eat in the same places as whites. And a lot of other things. Still not as bad here in recent times as it is there, but I think it all boils down to that we’ve had a more Hellenized culture in the west for a long time now, compared to the barbarians. Christianity took on a decidedly western flavor when Rome started administrating it. Whereas you go to some sections in Israel and the Jews throw rocks at women if they are dressed too provocatively.

So I don’t think you can really blame it on race or religion, but regional culture.
Perhaps, but can this culture be removed from Islam? Many would argue no, even many Muslims. For example, some claim that only an Arab reading arabic can understand the Koran. Will Islam modernise or will those they convert step back?
 
Perhaps, but can this culture be removed from Islam? Many would argue no, even many Muslims. For example, some claim that only an Arab reading arabic can understand the Koran. Will Islam modernise or will those they convert step back?
Depends on where the Islam is practiced. Chinese Muslims are probably going to follow Chinese culture more, American Muslims will probably behave more like westerners. Etc.

I’ve never seen any huge issues with English Quran translations. A lot of people try to claim some special knowledge of their holy books due to the language in order to trump your own beliefs. Jews do that with the OT/Tanach during debates, using that as a way to say you are wrong because you can’t read Hebrew. Some Christians do that too with the NT, like they have magical powers and understanding because they know a little Greek. So that’s all mostly nonsense.
 
Lapell, are you serious? He fought in over 35 of the 78 battles waged for islam/allah. He told his followers to divvy up the women and children as booty - and he got 1/5th of all the booty - including the conquered’s wealth. He even took as his wife a Jewess after he killed her people.

He did the first fatwa, basically wishing someone dead and his followers did the deed. And in this first case he had a poetess killed because she made poems against mohammed’s religion. She was suckling a child and both were killed.

jihad - Jews and Christians must be warred against until they submit to Islamic rule, pay a special tax, and “feel themselves subdued” (Qur’an 9:29)

Keep in mind that surrah 8 and 9 abrogate many of those peaceful passages. since the koran is not in any good order this is misleading because some of the peaceful passages are later surahs. But, muslims won’t tell you this, instead they will tell you that because you are an unbeliever/infidel you cannot understand the koran. As if saying, ‘I want to be a muslim and whatever else they say to be one…’ makes the mess of a koran any easier to understand.

Qur’an 4:71-104 is an extended passage exhorting the believers to go forth courageously to jihad warfare.

8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I

will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

An interview with a beheader in saudi arabia:
memritv.org/clip/en/1322.htm
  • Remember: Al Qaeda members are ‘good Muslims’- they take the Islamic scriptures seriously and will kill and die to emulate their ‘prophet’ Muhammad, a 7th century caravan raider, slave trader, torturer, genocidal mass-murderer, a misogynistic polygamist, child molester, arsonist and megalomanic warlord who pushed his pagan god ‘Allah’ in order to deceive his followers.
  • Once again: The AQ-boyz are good Muslims, they follow the Koran and the sunnah, wherein it is written:
    Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies…” (Qur’an 8:60)
‘I was ordered to fight men until they say “there is no god but allah”.’ mohammed’s farewell address, March 632

And this one is should be of no surprise: ‘I was ordered to fight men until they say “there is no god but allah, and his prophet mohammed”.’ bin laden, Nov 2001.

You really need to read a book before arguing any further. there are several out there: ‘The Life and Religion of Mohammed’, or ‘Politically Incorrect guide to Islam’ or
‘The Sword of the Prophet, Islam’. And to take it one step further, this one: ‘Myth of Islamic Tolerance’

Until then you are just spouting what the muslims want you to say. You are indeed appeasing them and making them very proud. And all that while our fellow Jews, Christians, Buddhists (tell me what a Buddhist monk did to a muslim?!), Hindus, etc are being killed in over 35 hotspots over this globe. And all that while they immigrate and build their numbers in Europe, Canada, the USA, and South America. They are in a jihad, called hudna (regrouping, growing, gaining ground, increasing demands, infiltrating our schools and government, media and businesses). Now they want to buy interests in our banks. To not only control us with oil, but with our money too.

Clinton massive conflict of interest:
jihadwatch.org/archives/019644.php

Here is one for you, they threatened Madrid when they bombed the subway because they were in Iraq. Gee, but they just can’t seem to stop bombing after Spain appeased the muslims. you know why? because mohammed told them to make no peace treaty longer than 10 years and it can be broken at any time before that by a muslim. If the infidel breaks the treaty then that also gives them an excuse to wage their jihad. And I am not talking that spiritual kind either.

sheikyermami.com/2008/01/24/barcelona-mosque-headquarter-for-islamic-terror-cell/#respond
 
Muhammad was an evil man and Christians do no service to anyone pretending otherwise.

I understand we should ‘look for common ground’, ‘treat eachother with respect’ and all that but there comes to a point where that gets thrown back in your face and you have to tell it like it is.

The koran is such a mess that you can take quotes from anywhere and make opposite points, some good, some bad and many exclusively dividing.

If we don’t point out Muhammad’s evil actions and the many bad verses from his own followers book, can we blame some Muslims for emulating their founder ?

If we don’t point out the obvious - that there is no connection between Muhammad and the God of Abraham from the Judaic Christian faith, can we blame Muslims for thinking that they are part of that tradition ?

Muhammad was not from God.

Muslims are God’s creatures like anyone else but we shouldn’t lie to them if it means condoning an evil man who started a pagan religion with tidbits of everywhere including the bible.

It is unfortunate Muhammad grew up in a Jewish - Christian village otherwise the erroneous references to that tradition would not have been included and we could see the pagan religion for what it is and not have muslims telling us their invented Roman, Jewish and Hellenist history.

If i told Hindus that i’ve just had a vision from Lord Vishnu and everything they thought they knew about Hinduism was wrong - would i be taken seriously ?

If i went out and killed innocent people because of that vision, would i be a good man ?

Would you be doing a good thing in pretending i was ?

Everyone reading this post is a better man that Muhammad was, and if you are not then you belong in jail.

I pray muslims will be blessed by God and free of Muhammad.
 
Here is the difference between our culture and a muslim one - we now have allowed women and blacks to vote. heck, we allow muslims to vote. They do not and the USA is only 400+ years old while muslim nations are very much older than that. islam is 1400+ years old and nothing has changed within it. If one is a woman or a dhimmi (subjugated people) then they do not have rights. Women in some of the countries might have the right to vote (many because we are there like Iraq) but their rights in courts of law is 1/2 that of a man.

Anything is allowed to do to kufir (rape, torture, slavery, death) just as long as they don’t do ‘shirk’. And ‘honor killings’ are ok too.

hotair.com/archives/2007/09/30/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-6-%e2%80%9ccattle%e2%80%9d-verses-1-83/

Slavery is still going on. Blame the USA for that one too while no one mentions that islam still carries on the practice. They pull slaves from Africa, Southeast Asia and anyone. saudi arabia signed an agreement in the 1960s to stop it but with all agreements with infidels - it can be broken at any time and they have broken it.

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002661.php

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/6431957.stm

Do your own searches - the articles are too numerous. A couple in Colorade thought they could just do their ‘muslim slave thing’ here in the USA too:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011826.php

Like I said ‘islam is the religion that keeps on giving’ as far as their transgressions for the atrocious and the violence goes. keep abreast of the news via jihadwatch.org to name one site. you will learn of the violence and transgressions worldwide.

Get informed and stop being an apologetics for them. If our ‘scholars’ want to continue to be apologetics for them - that just says a lot about their ‘scholarly’ selves. not so scholarly, I would say.

Here is the article on the 3 little pigs for someone who couldn’t find it. Keep in mind no one is asking them to eat the pig. But God’s animals are too offensive for their muslim sensibilities. And there is no reason for it. Jews don’t eat pig either and they have no problem with a fairy tale. It just shows us who is sensible and who are not.

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019677.php

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015675.php

Oh, you better believe that it will be here too.
 
I cannot point this out often enough.

In order for Christians to even begin to understand the Muslim position on matters regarding faith, they first need to put aside their insistence that an all-loving God will not have the heart to send any of His creations to the Hell-fire.

Any discourse arising from such a baseless belief – check it up in your own Bible if you do not wish to take my word for it – is bound to be extremely futile and therefore really not worth the time and effort involved.
 
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