Saint Paul and Islam

[Reuben_J]

As to this statement, “I am responding to Muslims. I was only bending backward to accomodate their reasonings and to use it in the argument.” Why bend backwards to appease someone? You certainly are not doing that for me. I am of your own religion and background. Are you afraid of them?! Why? You are anonymous. This is the sort of behavior that they want while they do nothing in return.

Don’t be stupid bro. I did not do it for you nor do I care. If your opinion corroborrates mine that’s fine, but if not, you are free to go your own way. Look at all my posts, and none of them support Mohammad or the Quran. We have our own ways in spearheading our arguments, and I have mine. I don’t know why you are so fussy over this, since I am not at all in support of whatever Mohammad did or said; in fact just the opposite.

How do you know that I don’t read some of those books and others too? I just don’t trumpet them - and that’s my choice.

Not all Muslim posters here are angels. They have their own agendas if you care to see how they behave and by their tricky demeanor. You can bulldoze your way through with your argument, that’s good, or, like me, I can bring the argument to them. Use their reasonings.

For the truth is truth, no matter how we present them. And lies are always lies. They will be exposed once brought out to the light. Do you notice why Mulims here do not want to talk about Mohammad? Pretty obvious, isn’t it? He will not withstand the scrutiny of the light - the truth. All evils will be exposed for what they are, by the truth - the light. And the only way to avoid that is not to talk about him. Drag the subject to something else. Don’t you see their dodging technique?

Don’t waste your time with me. Keep on with the work that you’ve started and do it well. Be convincing and reasonable so that you will be believeable and look credible too. Bragging about books and knowledge will not concince anybody here in the net, for words are cheap.

God bless.

Reuben.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well look, they wanted to kill him even before he said that, so it’s an error to synthesize an argument like, “Jesus said I AM and they wanted to kill him because he said he is God.”

That’s not why, they wanted to kill Jesus because they didn’t like that he preached they were a wicked generation. Nothing to do with saying he was God.

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Do not agree with you. Yet another personal opinion from you. Every time when they wanted to kill Jesus was when Jesus said or implied that He was equalled to God and thus claiming himself to be God.

Sure it piqued them to be told wicked generation but this was not enough for them wanting to kill him. None of the espisodes in the Gospels suggest this to be the reason for wanting to kill him. So your opinion is pure assumption and incorrect analysis.

 

[ralphinal]

I cannot point this out often enough.

In order for Christians to even begin to understand the Muslim position on matters regarding faith, they first need to put aside their insistence that an all-loving God will not have the heart to send any of His creations to the Hell-fire.

Any discourse arising from such a baseless belief – check it up in your own Bible if you do not wish to take my word for it – is bound to be extremely futile and therefore really not worth the time and effort involved.

Most Christians have no issue with Hell. We understand that our failings and sin sin us there. God sends people where they deserve to go. GOd is all-loving, but he is all just as well. We know that God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever should beleive in him might have eternal life (John 3:16). We also know that God wills the salvation of all men. But, God gives us free will so it is up to us. If we turn from God, we go to hell.

Please explain what you mean that we cannot understand Islam until we understand that God will send people to hell. I am not sure of the connection.

 

[R_not]

Reuben, good I got your ‘dander’ up. You finally posted some sense. Your previous post that I responded to sounded like someone in lala land. How else was a person to respond to it? I took it at face value and that is why I responded as I did.

Way too many of our own Catholic clergy, ‘scholars’, and peoples are appeasing and bending over backwards for muslims and all the while they do nothing to stop the violence anywhere against not only Christians, but the Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. This is what I thought you were doing.

 

[R_not]

Reuben, By the way - I wasn’t bragging, I was stating a fact. On other websites people don’t believe what I say so I usually have to prove it with websites and books. Of course, I don’t expect many to look any further than the websites, that is why I include them. For the ‘maybe’ one out there - I include the books.

I will continue to use this as my style. If you prefer not to go any further - than so be it, do what you will. I want to back up my words and find this the only way that I can do so.

What I think is happening I responded to a post by Lapell, and you are interjecting here - which is fine. I just got confused.

 

[hamba2han]

Please explain what you mean that we cannot understand Islam until we understand that God will send people to hell. I am not sure of the connection.

In order to begin to understand Islam, one really does need to know the various attributes of the ‘Owner’ of Islam.

 

[ralphinal]

In order to begin to understand Islam, one really does need to know the various attributes of the ‘Owner’ of Islam.

I know these names. Go on. Please tell me more.

I am still, and I guess I always will be, bothered by the fact that “Father” is not one there, considering Jesus taught us that one. But, let’s not get into that one here.

 

[inJESUS]

If a prophet claims to be speaking for God, and he is declared a false prophet, then what he speaks can be declared blasphemy. It’s not an automatic ticket to saying he claimed he is God, it could be about anything.

Like “God told me you need to eat your spinach.” If I’m lying about that, that’s blasphemy, attributing something false to God.

there are other references when Jesus did answer a question but was not labelled heresy…its not that whatever He said was rejected as “heresy”…yet in this specific case, it was indeed heresy if He is not who He is saying to be.

 

[Deusdonat]

Sure, but it’s like here in the USA we act like we’re so advanced yet not too long ago women couldn’t vote. I was alive when blacks still couldn’t even eat in the same places as whites. And a lot of other things. Still not as bad here in recent times as it is there, but I think it all boils down to that we’ve had a more Hellenized culture in the west for a long time now, compared to the barbarians. Christianity took on a decidedly western flavor when Rome started administrating it. Whereas you go to some sections in Israel and the Jews throw rocks at women if they are dressed too provocatively.

So I don’t think you can really blame it on race or religion, but regional culture.

Yes, actually you can blame both. The segregative culture in the US grew as a direct contradiction to Christianity, which states very clearly, “There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus”. Christianity at its core believes all people are equal in the eyes of God, yet segregation did not. So, obviously you cannot blame Christianity for this cultural phenomenon.

Meanwhile, the Qur’an teaches women are NOT equal to men on matters of testimony (their testimony is worth half of that of a man) and inherritance (a woman gets half of what a man gets, regardless if she is the remainig head of household). While the Saudis may take things to the extreme, they are in fact basing their segregation on Quranic teaching. So, you can blame your religion for that.

Pretty logical.

 

[hamba2han]

I know these names. Go on. Please tell me more.

I am still, and I guess I always will be, bothered by the fact that “Father” is not one there, considering Jesus taught us that one. But, let’s not get into that one here.

There are 99 names belonging to Allah which refers to His many attributes and of them, here are a few which adequately describes God as being the Greatest Terrorist there is.

**AL-JABBÂR – the Compeller

AL-MUDHILL – The Humiliator

AL-MUMÎT – The Causer of death

AL- MUNTAQIM – The Lord of Retribution, The Avenger**

And so you see, there is no problem at all for Muslims to accept that God will have no qualms whatsoever to send many of His creations to the Hell-fire.

Once you have put this picture of God in your mind, then it becomes very easy for you to accept all of the other attributes that He has.

Many Christians however, have a real big problem in picturing that an all-loving God will send His creations to Hell and instead they will cling to the notion that it is not God but rather it will be the creations who will send themselves to the fires of Hell.

This to a Muslim is just not logical as it goes against the very attributes of the Creator that He will not have the heart to send His creations to the Hell-fire.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

there are other references when Jesus did answer a question but was not labelled heresy…its not that whatever He said was rejected as “heresy”…yet in this specific case, it was indeed heresy if He is not who He is saying to be.

Well certainly, a prophet saying “I’m hungry” isn’t going to be blasphemous. But if he claims to be giving messages from God, and they say he is a false prophet, then claiming those messages are from God is blasphemy and lying that God said something He didn’t.

 

[Lapell]

If a prophet claims to be speaking for God, and he is declared a false prophet, then what he speaks can be declared blasphemy. It’s not an automatic ticket to saying he claimed he is God, it could be about anything.

Like “God told me you need to eat your spinach.” If I’m lying about that, that’s blasphemy, attributing something false to God.

In Jesus’ declaration to the High Priest, what would be so obviously blasphemous in it in the High Priest’s AND the people present’s eyes? (They had no hesitation making the call, had they!)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Do not agree with you. Yet another personal opinion from you. Every time when they wanted to kill Jesus was when Jesus said or implied that He was equalled to God and thus claiming himself to be God.

Sure it piqued them to be told wicked generation but this was not enough for them wanting to kill him. None of the espisodes in the Gospels suggest this to be the reason for wanting to kill him. So your opinion is pure assumption and incorrect analysis.

It’s not just personal opinion at all, here in Matthew 12 they wanted to kill him here for healing on the Sabbath too, not for saying he is God.

You are just making the mistake of perpetuating this mythology that they wanted to kill him ONLY because he said is God to try to prove somehow that he really said that. Jesus never even said that at all anywhere, the mere fact that he said he gave messages from God as a prophet is what makes him promoting himself as having the authority of God, and making himself a God over them. Nothing to do with literally being God.

And that’s all your idea is, Christian fable and myth to help sell the Trinity notion.

Matthew 12:10-14 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In Jesus’ declaration to the High Priest, what would be so obviously blasphemous in it in the High Priest’s AND the people present’s eyes? (They had no hesitation making the call, had they!)

He said he is the Messiah, Christ. Which is claiming to be a prophet and right hand man of God as human king promised to David they were all waiting for. But nothing to do with being God.

So a false prophet speaking lies about God is then a blasphemer.

Matthew 26:63-65 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

 

[Lapell]

My question remains: is raping actually condoned by the Quran? Somebody, please answer me…

This question is for everyone reading and/or participating in this thread. I asked it because someone seemed to mean that Muhammed actually taught such a thing… Thank you!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, actually you can blame both. The segregative culture in the US grew as a direct contradiction to Christianity, which states very clearly, “There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus”. Christianity at its core believes all people are equal in the eyes of God, yet segregation did not. So, obviously you cannot blame Christianity for this cultural phenomenon.

Meanwhile, the Qur’an teaches women are NOT equal to men on matters of testimony (their testimony is worth half of that of a man) and inherritance (a woman gets half of what a man gets, regardless if she is the remainig head of household). While the Saudis may take things to the extreme, they are in fact basing their segregation on Quranic teaching. So, you can blame your religion for that.

Pretty logical.

That’s just a bunch of hooey.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

[inJESUS]

Well certainly, a prophet saying “I’m hungry” isn’t going to be blasphemous. But if he claims to be giving messages from God, and they say he is a false prophet, then claiming those messages are from God is blasphemy and lying that God said something He didn’t.

am hungry wasn’t on my mind…all confrontations were important, yet they did not talk about blasphemy because he is “false prophet”…the NT mentions their remarks and the reasons…do not forget that they wanted to find a reason to accuse Him…and based on your interpretation, then we should read “blasphemy” in all the confrontations…yet they didn’t.

"Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked Him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” …But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

No mention of blasphemy because they know He’s right…they did not cry blasphemy only because they don’t believe Him.

 

[Lapell]

Lapell, are you serious? He fought in over 35 of the 78 battles waged for islam/allah. He told his followers to divvy up the women and children as booty - and he got 1/5th of all the booty - including the conquered’s wealth. He even took as his wife a Jewess after he killed her people.

He did the first fatwa, basically wishing someone dead and his followers did the deed. And in this first case he had a poetess killed because she made poems against mohammed’s religion. She was suckling a child and both were killed.

jihad - Jews and Christians must be warred against until they submit to Islamic rule, pay a special tax, and “feel themselves subdued” (Qur’an 9:29)

Keep in mind that surrah 8 and 9 abrogate many of those peaceful passages. since the koran is not in any good order this is misleading because some of the peaceful passages are later surahs. But, muslims won’t tell you this…]

Qur’an 4:71-104 is an extended passage exhorting the believers to go forth courageously to jihad warfare.

8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I

will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them"

R_not, my question was and still is a serious one. Is it clearly stated in the Quran that under certain circumstances, you can rape a woman? And while we are at it, what is your source for what you state in the 1st paragraph of this quote here? It’s important.

 

[inJESUS]

He said he is the Messiah, Christ. Which is claiming to be a prophet and right hand man of God as human king promised to David they were all waiting for. But nothing to do with being God.

Isaiah 19:1

“Behold, **Jehovah **is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt.”

Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

this is why "And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? "You have heard the blasphemy;

Jesus knew the scriptures very well, and knew very well the implications of His words.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

am hungry wasn’t on my mind…all confrontations were important, yet they did not talk about blasphemy because he is “false prophet”…the NT mentions their remarks and the reasons…do not forget that they wanted to find a reason to accuse Him…and based on your interpretation, then we should read “blasphemy” in all the confrontations…yet they didn’t.

"Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked Him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” …But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

No mention of blasphemy because they know He’s right…they did not cry blasphemy only because they don’t believe Him.

They didn’t believe he was from God, they thought he was crafty from the power of Satan, and that his claims to be from God were false and therefore blasphemy.

If they really thought he was from God they wouldn’t have rejected him, Jews aren’t stupid. Just mislead.

Matthew 9:34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.