Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

You view things according to temporal time, not according to Hebrew grammar! Those were Hebrews, remember! Maybe Arabic has such a dimension in it, since it’s a Semitic language, or has it not?

What? I still sin and people are still dying so it’s not over yet.

 

[planten]

When Muhammed says that Jesus never said he is God, since he was illiterate, I take it he was unable to check in any Gospel parchments that it was or was not as he was told. God would not have been afraid if he had and could have, for the Truth could be confirmed and falsehood be proved false.

Lapell, Muhammad never read any book. He did not make Quiran by reading any book, bible or Torah etc.He was guided and told everything by God care of an angel. That he used to tell his friends to write down immediately. There is no question of Muhammad reading and learning anything religious from any one. He was a prophet. He was taught by God.

 

[dolphinlove]

Lapell, Muhammad never read any book. He did not make Quiran by reading any book, bible or Torah etc.He was guided and told everything by God care of an angel. That he used to tell his friends to write down immediately. There is no question of Muhammad reading and learning anything religious from any one. He was a prophet. He was taught by God.

Muhammed is no prophet, there is no prophet after John the Baptist, Jesus, the Son of God, said so himself.
Luke 16: 16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

He made up the quran to serve his own purposes on how HE thinks life should be lived.

 

[Lapell]

What? I still sin and people are still dying so it’s not over yet.

And I still sin too, although I try not to, and people experience misery, being exploited, ill-doing and illnesses of all sorts, and death… I do know that, thank you, and I am not denying it, don’t worry! Still… Read my posts about fulfilment more carefully. It’s like a letter posted in the mailbox just today. It takes time to reach the people it’s sent to. But the letter is written, it’s been posted and it will reach the address after a while. Oh, it might be that the person isn’t there any more, that he/she moved elsewhere… forgot to tell about the new address, you know, or maybe didn’t want to because that person didn’t want any more thing from the sender. But the letter still will reach the address after a little while!
The fulfilment has been achieved, but as for reaching us, especially as to the end of time and of this world, well of course it will take time. But some of it is already here! The rest will just come later. But what triggered the fulfilment already happened, this is what I meant…

 

[Lapell]

Muhammed is no prophet, there is no prophet after John the Baptist, Jesus, the Son of God, said so himself.
Luke 16: 16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

He made up the quran to serve his own purposes on how HE thinks life should be lived.

That the Revelation was completed with the Gospels and the rest of the NT, I agree, but does it mean there is no prophet after the last of the Apostles?
What is true, though, is that they can’t come up with a Gospel different from the one that the Apostles taught orally and through the New Testament, otherwise they’re just false prophets.

 

[Lapell]

Lapell, Muhammad never read any book. He did not make Quiran by reading any book, bible or Torah etc.He was guided and told everything by God care of an angel. That he used to tell his friends to write down immediately. There is no question of Muhammad reading and learning anything religious from any one. He was a prophet. He was taught by God.

This is just the point with Muhammad. He believed that what he received was from God through His angel. So about his sincerity I do believe. However, not every person believing he is telling the truth, but the truth and only the truth actually tells only the truth. What is sure is that he will tell what he BELIEVES to be the truth. And it’s too bad that in the neighborhood then there seemed not to be any Christian fully faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church of that time, or that the Christians that Muhammad met happened not to be fully in accordance with the Church. That Jesus didn’t die on the cross, that it was somebody else who looked just like him, for instance, is an error. It WAS Jesus all right! Muhammad kinda believed otherwise. Did the “Christian” people he met tell him so before he had received the surah saying it?

 

[R_not]

Please when posting (R_not etc) remember that Muhammad did not start all the wars, please consider the following:

1. Muhammad did not start any war. He lived and preached peacefully in makkah for 13 years. Same as Jesus did for three years.
2. He and his friends were highly persecuted during the 13 years.
3. His friends even had to run away (migrate) to a christian country (Ethopia).
4. He was about to be killed in Makkah. It was a plan to kill him.
5. Under divine command, he had to leave his home (migrate).
6. There was a price on his head, dead or alive (100 camels).
7. He reached Madinah safely in such bad conditions.
8. Still the enmity of the polytheists was not reduced.
9. Muhammad had to take steps for safety and made agreements with the tribes of Madinah, Jews and christians, all. It was a secular type of agreement caring for all faiths. The agreement can be seen even today in some museums.
10. The Quresh of Makkah (The enemies) were planning to attack Madinah. Muhammad had all the news about their bad intentions.
11. He had to take steps to stop them from attacking Madinah.
12. Whatever he did was the right step. It was no use taking things lightly. If he had slept and taken things easy then he and all his friends would have been killed. It would have been like what happened to jesus and his followers.
13. Muhammad was being guided and commanded by God all the time. He was not doing anything on his own wishes. Please see the Old Testament, how the Israelis were guided and commanded all the time by the God through the prophets.
    14, If any one will accuse Muhammad for starting any fights/ wars then that will be very bad. Every one should see the behaviour of the opponnets of Muhammad, how harsh it was. Please do not forget that bad behaviour. They (enemies) were criminals. They deserved to be killed anyhow.
14. Please have a wide and fair view of the system. Thanks.

mohammed was laughed at. That is NOT persecution - or let me say it is NOTHING like what he did in return - behead, take the women and children as booty, rape, stole, taught his followers to lie (eg: when he made a treaty he broke it when he and his men were regrouped and rearmed - and this is what muslims do now and this is why there will be no peace between musims and anyone), issued fatwas which were death sentences. His first fatwa was against a women who wrote a poem against mohammed and his new ‘religion’. She died while nursing her child.

This is what mohammed was - a murderer.

Don’t ask me ‘please’ anything. You need to wake up and realize what you follow.

And you even admit that by the statement ‘…they deserve to be killed…’ islam was founded on death, destruction and chaos.

It was, and is, being spread by fear, intimidation and the sword. No one in their right mind could grasp islam. Like Abu Sayeff said, he joined islam because it was the only religion that ensured that he could go to heaven - Abu Sayeff was a murdering thug who took on islam because it so suited his lifestyle.

Go do some reading and do something that so few muslims do - find out for yourself what kind of a man mohammed was. He started his murdering rampages after he founded islam.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Muhammed is no prophet, there is no prophet after John the Baptist, Jesus, the Son of God, said so himself.

There are these guys.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This is what mohammed was - a murderer.

There would also be no Jesus without things like this:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


DOUBLE STANDARD A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women.

 

[R_not]

There would also be no Jesus without things like this:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


DOUBLE STANDARD A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women.

The difference being that we don’t follow that order - it is a recorded and that is all.

Unlike islam that has followers murdering throughout the ages per mohammed’s orders.

and as for islam being an ‘Abrahamic’ faith - that is all in mohammed’s mind. There is no connection. He was an illiterate that wanted the Jews to be converted to his new religion - they didn’t fall for it and then that is when he started murdering them, taking their women and children as booty after he and his men raped them and stole their property.

None of the stories related by mohammed are what are in the bible - but mohammed made sure that his followers would ignore that fact by saying that the Christians and Jews distorted the Bible. And that is why they will go to hades. But, that is also why the only ones who want islam to change are Westerners because mohammed said that if muslims changed the koran - they would go to hades.

Sort of a slick guy this guy mohammed. but, he was a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a torturer, enslaver, and a liar.

The one thing that can be assured of is that when a muslim is faced with a person who knows about islam, its 'prophet, and its origins - they will start quoting the bible to justify why they are ok with carrying on the murder, torture, rape, slavery, etc that their ‘prophet’ did.

In fact, if they told the blacks that they convert that islam not only had a ‘prophet’ that enslaved people and their followers are ok with practicing it to this day - I wonder how many blacks would be duped into converting to islam? It is why islam is forced on a population - threats of terrorism if the populace doesn’t appease muslims, the infiltration into our institutions to make sure that they start changing our laws to be more like sharia law and to appease muslims, etc - are all goals the muslims have now. In fact, these have sped up since 9/11. the stated goal is for the next 10 years to start getting muslims into public offices and institutions. And to be dominate by 2050, or sooner.

I know your ‘theology’. It is one of imperialism. It is one of chaos and subjugation, and death if one does not convert.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The difference being that we don’t follow that order - it is a recorded and that is all.

What order were Spanish Catholics following when they conquered Native Americans and forced them to convert? Among all other such Christian activity through history.

It’s easy to sit back and claim superiority once you are done with your dirty work and have your booty.

 

[planten]

Muhammed is no prophet, there is no prophet after John the Baptist, Jesus, the Son of God, said so himself.
Luke 16: 16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

He made up the quran to serve his own purposes on how HE thinks life should be lived.

Not true. That is a very limited biased view. Cannot be good for all mankind. Jesus was also a prophet after John the baptist. If John was the last prophet then Jesus should not be a prophet.
Our Quran tells that John and Jesus were prophets of God. If Quran had not come (1400 years ago) then nobody would have known or believed John or Jesus in the world.
No one other than Muslims believes John and Jesus as a prophet. Please tell me. Do not mention the christians. They are a party to this dispute. Leave the christians alone. Then tell me who believes in john and Jesus as good men and God’s men? Nobody, no group in the world.

 

[Lapell]

What order were Spanish Catholics following when they conquered Native Americans and forced them to convert? Among all other such Christian activity through history.

It’s easy to sit back and claim superiority once you are done with your dirty work and have your booty.

And just where did you get this from? How are you so sure it was like you said? Not a chance of any bias from your sources? Especially for things that happened over a century ago…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And just where did you get this from? How are you so sure it was like you said? Not a chance of any bias from your sources? Especially for things that happened over a century ago…

No chance, Spanish killed or converted Native Americans up and down California and built missions along the way.

 

[Lapell]

Muhammed is no prophet, there is no prophet after John the Baptist, Jesus, the Son of God, said so himself.
Luke 16: 16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

He made up the quran to serve his own purposes on how HE thinks life should be lived.

planten, did you take a look at post #742 ? What do you think about it?

 

[Lapell]

No chance, Spanish killed or converted Native Americans up and down California and built missions along the way.

And how do you know there is not a chance of bias?

 

[R_not]

What order were Spanish Catholics following when they conquered Native Americans and forced them to convert? Among all other such Christian activity through history.

It’s easy to sit back and claim superiority once you are done with your dirty work and have your booty.

Yes, there have been quite a number of bad men. But, muslims ARE STILL MURDERING and torturing, raping, enslaving, etc and WE have stopped doing such things for a religion.

And here is one big difference between a Christian based society and a muslim based society - besides the fact that muslim based societies are backwards, poor and offer nothing if they don’t have oil reserves - we take people who murder, put them in jail, give them a trial and mete out justice. Muslims do not. All they have to do is claim the person tried to get out of islam, or that it was an ‘honor killing’, or the person belonged to the wrong sect of islam, or the person was a kufir. Basically it is a paradise for psychopaths - such as Abu Sayeff who said that islam was the perfect religion for him.

I like how you think that comparing apples to oranges while ignoring all other points I brought up. Compare the two religion’s founders - Christ stopped a stoning and mohammed not only did it but did other atrocities that the followers still carry on to this day.

Christ taught to love God, they neighbor and thyself. mohammed taught only to love muslims and if the rest don’t convert - do what you must - kill 'em, rape 'em, enslave 'em, torture 'em, and if they still don’t convert - it is ok to subjugate them and humiliate them daily and make them do what muslims don’t want to do and make sure to tax them with outrageous taxes. Some had to pay taxes AFTER they died.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And how do you know there is not a chance of bias?

I live in a mission town and its activities are well-documented. Native Americans endured forced conversion and labor at the mission, and also the nasty European diseases. When they tried to escape from it they were killed or held prisoners in the mission. As Native American populations dwindled the Father ordered the military to travel outward and bring in more Native Americans, the Yokut tribe being one. After the Mexicans took over from Spain in the mid 1800s Native Americans were driven off and left with nothing.

This is just one town of many in the world Catholics imposed their own will and sword on, so it’s hypocritical to act like it’s the perfect church of Jesus, it never has been. It’s flawed like all the rest.

 

[ralphinal]

I live in a mission town and its activities are well-documented. Native Americans endured forced conversion and labor at the mission, and also the nasty European diseases. When they tried to escape from it they were killed or held prisoners in the mission. As Native American populations dwindled the Father ordered the military to travel outward and bring in more Native Americans, the Yokut tribe being one. After the Mexicans took over from Spain in the mid 1800s Native Americans were driven off and left with nothing.

This is just one town of many in the world Catholics imposed their own will and sword on, so it’s hypocritical to act like it’s the perfect church of Jesus, it never has been. It’s flawed like all the rest.

FoA,

I am not disputing the facts that you have stated. I know of many injustices done in that time. My question is was it done BY the Church, by members of the Church without Church order, by agents of the Church working for the government, by the governement , or by a bunch of mean people?

Our claim is that the Church did not endorse or order anyone to do anything of the sort. Agents of the Church working for the government or the government itself might have, but I have never seen an order from Rome, so to speak, to do any of that. Some claim that Muhammid did order such horrors. This is not the topic, but it is the point that some are making.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, there have been quite a number of bad men. But, muslims ARE STILL MURDERING and torturing, raping, enslaving, etc and WE have stopped doing such things for a religion.

Except Mohammed has yet to knock Hitler out as #1 Satan of the world – a Catholic. And you don’t really want to get into discussing rape, do you? The Church has its fingers in so many pies around the world no one knows what it has stopped doing.

So let’s have a reality check here.