Saint Paul and Islam

[R_not]

Hum! Saint Joan of Arc wasn’t fighting against Muslims…

Yeah, I know - sorry if I wasn’t clear about that. As it was they burned her instead of the muslims stoning her or beheading her. Her bravery during her time is beyond my comprehension.

 

[planten]

Well, then I guess it is about time we start telling them the truth. Tell them to read their own koran and hadiths. Many things are in there, but also they would have to do something they are not told to do… question their ‘religion’. They are told that if they do question it, change it, or leave it they will go to hades.

.

R_not, please read the Quran and Hadith in the light of the time i.e. 1400 years ago when the muslims were being persecuted and war was being pressed on them from all sides, even from the Roman kingdom and later from the persians.

The Romans were stronger than the Persians because they had defeated the Persians in the near past. But it so happened that the Muslims had to fight the Romans first and defeated them in battles. By that time the Persians got the message.

I request you to read the Quran with all that background in your mind, i.e. the hatred and the enmity of own arab pagan people, the enmity of the Jews and the christians, the war implements of the Romans and the persians against the poor Muslim state of Madinah.

It is no use reading the Quran and Hadith without that background in mind.

 

[Booklover]

Suppose for a moment that there are moderate Muslims, with or without the " at each end of the word, among the Muslims who genuinely believe that Muhammad was not a rapist, thief. liar, enslaver, torturer, and murderer? That it must be just legends… ( you know, things that never happened but are true anyway, as Fr. Groeshel put it)

In this interview with FrontPage Magazine, ex-Muslim Abul Kasem stated:

Now I come to the topic of *Moderate Muslims. *To have moderate Muslims, there must be moderate Islam.
Then the question will be: Is there such a thing as moderate Islam? For the existence of moderate Islam/Muslims, there must be a ‘moderate’ Qur’an, since the life force of Islam is the Qur’an. If the Qur’an cannot be ‘moderated’ (i.e., a moderate Qur’an) then how is it possible to have a moderate Islam, and consequently moderate Muslims?
What we perceive as the so-called moderate Muslims may be classified into three groups:
The first group–the vast majority, probably around 90% of global Muslims, are Muslims by name only. They have no idea about the contents of the Qur’an, ahadith and Sharia. It is a misnomer to term them as moderate Muslims. Strictly speaking, if we go by the Qur’an, they are not Muslims at all. According to Sharia law, they might even be sentenced to death for not adhering strictly to Islam.
The second group, I would call them pretend Muslims. They are probably around 5% of all Muslims. They occasionally go to mosques on Fridays and on Eid days and sometimes pray and fast at home. These Muslims are also hypocrites. When the dark side of Islam is illustrated to them, they are disturbed, become defensive and justify the evil nature of Islam by alluding to historical contexts. This is simply nonsense, as the Qur’anic verses are valid for eternity and must be acted upon by Muslims at all times. These so-called moderate Muslims discover in Islam what Islam is not meant to be. They resort to twisted meanings of those numerous brutal verses, and attempt to transform them into loving and kissing ones. How can we call this group of Muslims moderate?
The third group (another 4% of Muslims) is the Islamists who have no guts to blow themselves up but resort to intellectual Jihad and academic and philosophical terrorism. They are the spiritual foundations of the real Islamist terrorists. They regularly visit mosques, organize Islamic seminars, and send e-mails to gullible non-believers and design Islamic websites. Many of them are Imams in mosques. They are diehard ritualists—never missing a single prayer, always patronizing *halal *eateries (while living in infidel lands), soliciting funds and Zakat (Islamic alms) money to finance Jihad in Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir and so on. They exhort other not-so-good Muslims to hate the non-Muslims. So, you see, there is no such true thing as moderate Muslims.
These fake ‘moderate’ Muslims are similar to the spectators in a stadium. They cheer (in silence) the jihadists who are combating the infidels in the arena. Therefore, it is foolhardy to depend upon these ‘moderate’ Muslims to reform and regain Islam from the hands of the extremists. ‘Moderate’ Muslims and the jihadists (extremists) are just the two faces of the same coin. They are the same—one group is in silent actions, the other group is in violent actions.
Therefore, I regret to say that your use of the ‘moderate’ Muslims to develop a counter jihad approach is truly misplaced. The current policies of the western governments to appease the ‘moderate’ Muslims, extolling Islam as a religion of ‘peace’, and hunting the jihadists to stop Islamist terrorism is just wrong. This policy is bound to failure.
So long as the Muslims are energized, motivated, and instructed according to the core scriptures of Islam, there will be no end to Islamist terrorism.
Please remember that terrorism is just a tactic employed by the jihadists to advance their agenda, which is to conquer the globe and enforce Islamic laws. You might laugh or pooh-pooh such a chutzpah of the Islamists. But bear in mind that Islamists have unshakeable belief in the ultimate victory of Islam through terror. They have already conquered the Muslim world and now want to conquer the West. It is because Muhammad himself has declared that Islam will be victorious through terror and plunder (see Bukhari Hadis, 1.7.331).

 

[R_not]

R_not, please read the Quran and Hadith in the light of the time i.e. 1400 years ago when the muslims were being persecuted and war was being pressed on them from all sides, even from the Roman kingdom and later from the persians.

The Romans were stronger than the Persians because they had defeated the Persians in the near past. But it so happened that the Muslims had to fight the Romans first and defeated them in battles. By that time the Persians got the message.

I request you to read the Quran with all that background in your mind, i.e. the hatred and the enmity of own arab pagan people, the enmity of the Jews and the christians, the war implements of the Romans and the persians against the poor Muslim state of Madinah.

It is no use reading the Quran and Hadith without that background in mind.

Once again, hogwash. Persecution to mohammed was that others were not buying his new ‘religion’ so after a while he started to kill them.

muslims think that people not wanting their ‘religion’ is persecution so that is why the conversions took place ‘by the sword’.

your mohammed was not a nice guy.

 

[Lapell]

Yeah, I know - sorry if I wasn’t clear about that. As it was they burned her instead of the muslims stoning her or beheading her. Her bravery during her time is beyond my comprehension.

There were other saintly heroes like her even from the beginning of the Church. Their bravery too is quite a mystery…

 

[Lapell]

The first group–the vast majority, probably around 90% of global Muslims, are Muslims by name only. They have no idea about the contents of the Qur’an, ahadith and Sharia. It is a misnomer to term them as moderate Muslims. Strictly speaking, if we go by the Qur’an, they are not Muslims at all. According to Sharia law, they might even be sentenced to death for not adhering strictly to Islam.

You know, given what “Muslim” is supposed to mean, even though they might not be faithful to Muhammad’s message itself according to you, they might be truly Muslims “submitted to Allah- the true God” if they kinda realise they would follow Allah better by not listening to Muhammad on certain things which their religious sense would sense not to be in accordance with the One true God!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Once again, hogwash. Persecution to mohammed was that others were not buying his new ‘religion’ so after a while he started to kill them.

muslims think that people not wanting their ‘religion’ is persecution so that is why the conversions took place ‘by the sword’.

your mohammed was not a nice guy.

All the pagans wanted to kill him because he preached to destroy their idols and worship God.

Elijah killed pagans too, was Elijah a bad man? If not why not?

1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

 

[Lapell]

…Provided, of course, that you are right about the Koran and Muhammad!! This I’m afraid only God really knows!
There is Muhammad as he was and there is Muhammad as he was seen by his first followers, and there is Muhammad as some of the first followers (maybe the ones more prone to yield to anger, violence, etc., etc.!) wanted him to be seen like. I think, given that it’s the followers who continued Islam after Muhammad’s death, that there are possibilities that we have Muhammad’s portrait after his followers and that, well, some of the most influent might have been also those who wouldn’t mind making him someone else… to suit their own ideas of grandeur or something of the kind.

 

[Rocky]

All the pagans wanted to kill him because he preached to destroy their idols and worship God.

Elijah killed pagans too, was Elijah a bad man? If not why not?

1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

Let’s back up in that account of Elijah and the prophets of Baal:

1 Kings 18:21- 38:

Elijah appealed to all the people and said “How long will you straddle the issue? If the Lord is God, follow him, if Baal, follow him” The people, however, did not answer him. So Elijah said to the people, “I am the only surviving prophet of the Lord, and there are four hundred and fifty prophes of Baal. Give us two young bulls, Let them choose one, cut it into pieces, and place it on the wood, but start no fire. I shall prepare the other and place it on the wood, but shall start no fire. You shall call on your gods, and I will call on the Lord. The God who answers with fire is God.” All the people answered, “Agreed”…

[The prophets] taking the young bull that was turned over to them…prepared it and called on Baal from morning to noon, saying “Answer us Baal!” But there was no sound, and no one answering… Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state until the time for offering sacrifice. But there was not a sound: no one answered, and no one was listening.

Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” When they had done so, he repaired the altar of the Lord which had been destroyed… and made a trench around the altar large enough for two seahs of gran. When he had arranged the wood, he cut up the young bull and laid it on the wood. Fill four jars with water," he said, “and pour it over the holocaust and over the wood.” “Do it again… Do it a third time,” he said, and they did it a third time…

At the time for offering sacrifice… the Lord’s fire came down and consumed the holocaust, wood, stones and dust, and it lapped up the water in the trench.

The difference here between Mohammed and Elijah is that there was a miracle that proved Elijah was a true prophet. Where are the accounts of Mohammed’s miracles?

 

[R_not]

All the pagans wanted to kill him because he preached to destroy their idols and worship God.

Elijah killed pagans too, was Elijah a bad man? If not why not?

1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

Maybe you should compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Compare Christ to mohammed. One stopped a stoning and preached turn the other cheek while the other stoned and lobbed off the cheek.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Maybe you should compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Compare Christ to mohammed. One stopped a stoning and preached turn the other cheek while the other stoned and lobbed off the cheek.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek but Christians preferred to keep acting like the OT Jews and live by the sword. As we see in Iraq right now and all through the history of Christanity.

So let’s compare Mohammed to Elijah since so many Christians are fighting men like that.

Unless you want to say no Christian should be involved in any wars, as JWs do in accordance with what Jesus taught. Then we can compare with Jesus.

 

[R_not]

In this interview with FrontPage Magazine, ex-Muslim Abul Kasem stated:

Now I come to the topic of *Moderate Muslims. *To have moderate Muslims, there must be moderate Islam.
Then the question will be: Is there such a thing as moderate Islam? For the existence of moderate Islam/Muslims, there must be a ‘moderate’ Qur’an, since the life force of Islam is the Qur’an. If the Qur’an cannot be ‘moderated’ (i.e., a moderate Qur’an) then how is it possible to have a moderate Islam, and consequently moderate Muslims?
What we perceive as the so-called moderate Muslims may be classified into three groups:
The first group–the vast majority, probably around 90% of global Muslims, are Muslims by name only. They have no idea about the contents of the Qur’an, ahadith and Sharia. It is a misnomer to term them as moderate Muslims. Strictly speaking, if we go by the Qur’an, they are not Muslims at all. According to Sharia law, they might even be sentenced to death for not adhering strictly to Islam.
The second group, I would call them pretend Muslims. They are probably around 5% of all Muslims. They occasionally go to mosques on Fridays and on Eid days and sometimes pray and fast at home. These Muslims are also hypocrites. When the dark side of Islam is illustrated to them, they are disturbed, become defensive and justify the evil nature of Islam by alluding to historical contexts. This is simply nonsense, as the Qur’anic verses are valid for eternity and must be acted upon by Muslims at all times. These so-called moderate Muslims discover in Islam what Islam is not meant to be. They resort to twisted meanings of those numerous brutal verses, and attempt to transform them into loving and kissing ones. How can we call this group of Muslims moderate?
The third group (another 4% of Muslims) is the Islamists who have no guts to blow themselves up but resort to intellectual Jihad and academic and philosophical terrorism. They are the spiritual foundations of the real Islamist terrorists. They regularly visit mosques, organize Islamic seminars, and send e-mails to gullible non-believers and design Islamic websites. Many of them are Imams in mosques. They are diehard ritualists—never missing a single prayer, always patronizing *halal *eateries (while living in infidel lands), soliciting funds and Zakat (Islamic alms) money to finance Jihad in Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir and so on. They exhort other not-so-good Muslims to hate the non-Muslims. So, you see, there is no such true thing as moderate Muslims.
These fake ‘moderate’ Muslims are similar to the spectators in a stadium. They cheer (in silence) the jihadists who are combating the infidels in the arena. Therefore, it is foolhardy to depend upon these ‘moderate’ Muslims to reform and regain Islam from the hands of the extremists. ‘Moderate’ Muslims and the jihadists (extremists) are just the two faces of the same coin. They are the same—one group is in silent actions, the other group is in violent actions.
Therefore, I regret to say that your use of the ‘moderate’ Muslims to develop a counter jihad approach is truly misplaced. The current policies of the western governments to appease the ‘moderate’ Muslims, extolling Islam as a religion of ‘peace’, and hunting the jihadists to stop Islamist terrorism is just wrong. This policy is bound to failure.
So long as the Muslims are energized, motivated, and instructed according to the core scriptures of Islam, there will be no end to Islamist terrorism.
Please remember that terrorism is just a tactic employed by the jihadists to advance their agenda, which is to conquer the globe and enforce Islamic laws. You might laugh or pooh-pooh such a chutzpah of the Islamists. But bear in mind that Islamists have unshakeable belief in the ultimate victory of Islam through terror. They have already conquered the Muslim world and now want to conquer the West. It is because Muhammad himself has declared that Islam will be victorious through terror and plunder (see Bukhari Hadis, 1.7.331).

Vickie, I don’t know if you know about Daniel Pipes but he calls a phenomenon that happens among the ‘moderate’ muslims - sudden jihad syndrome. What happens is that a (so called?) moderate muslim will all of a sudden start killing in the name of islam. And this is what is making us not trust islam/muslims. It is happening more often and we hear of things such as the women in our own countries now being trained as jihadists (an article in jihadwatch.org) and there is a new thing our intelligence found - pregnant belly bombs.

And the doctors that almost carried out another 9/11, and other incidences too numerous to mention - all being carried out by ‘moderate’ muslims.

So the new question that we ask - who is more honest - a radical muslim or a ‘moderate’ muslim?, especially if one reads the koran and hadiths!

jihadwatch.org/archives/019917.php

And as for ‘sister amy’ saying Mr. Spencer is innacurate, or whatever she calls him, she is entirely wrong. He has never acted other than a gentleman, and is another one who is threatened so has to live somewhere in secret.

 

[R_not]

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek but Christians preferred to keep acting like the OT Jews and live by the sword. As we see in Iraq right now and all through the history of Christanity.

So let’s compare Mohammed to Elijah since so many Christians are fighting men like that.

Unless you want to say no Christian should be involved in any wars, as JWs do in accordance with what Jesus taught. Then we can compare with Jesus.

And as we have seen - in Armenia, in our current Africa - muslims like it when the Christians don’t fight back - they just go in and slaughter them, and in the case of women and children - enslave them - I suppose you kill the ones you don’t want if there are too many.

I suppose it would be so much easier to do the ‘old jihad’ of cutting off our heads, taking the women and children as slaves instead of this cumbersome jihad of slowly growing your numbers, infiltrating and brainwashing, huh?

too bad the internet gave us a way to fight you with words and show the others that islam is NOT a ‘religion’ that one should join unless they are either psychopaths or willing to support those psychopaths. Because mohammed tells you that if you cannot join the violent jihad that you are to support the jihadists, the jihadist’s families, and the old jihadists. That is what muslim charity is all about that is why we see such pathetic conditions in muslim nations. The oil wealthy muslims only send their big bucks to train the jihadists - they don’t do anything to help their own.

Oh, they might give alms to their castoff slaves they don’t find attractive anymore - those who amass around the mosques in your countries. I suppose that makes them feel better. Otherwise, if a woman’s husband, and other males die, she doesn’t have a means to support herself in those under sharia law. And that is ok just as long as you muslim males feel superior and holy.

 

[R_not]

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek but Christians preferred to keep acting like the OT Jews and live by the sword. As we see in Iraq right now and all through the history of Christanity.

So let’s compare Mohammed to Elijah since so many Christians are fighting men like that.

Unless you want to say no Christian should be involved in any wars, as JWs do in accordance with what Jesus taught. Then we can compare with Jesus.

Oh, and I want to add to your last remark - like I said previously - compare Christ to mohammed. We don’t follow Elijah.

I had no problem being a christian in the military and also supporting my guys in the military. I believe what they do is try to make this world safe and the ones who should be ashamed of themselves are those who follow guys such as Hitler, mohammed and any of his muslims such as bin laden, Stalin, Mao, Che Guevera, etc.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Oh, and I want to add to your last remark - like I said previously - compare Christ to mohammed. We don’t follow Elijah.

You better follow Elijah too, God sent his spirit as John the Baptist and may send him for real before the end.

Malachi 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Abraham to Ishmael, Ishmael to Abraham, among others.

I had no problem being a christian in the military and also supporting my guys in the military. I believe what they do is try to make this world safe and the ones who should be ashamed of themselves are those who follow guys such as Hitler, mohammed and any of his muslims such as bin laden, Stalin, Mao, Che Guevera, etc.

Jesus said to stay out of all that fighting among men and preach the Gospel.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

those who amass around the mosques in your countries.

My countries?

I’m Native American, my tribe is my nation. Oppressed and nearly destroyed by Christians “just trying to help out.”

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Remember that I’m not really any religion, all of them have been tainted. But instead of sitting back pointing the finger, think about how Christian brutality and corruption throughout the ages may have contributed to not only the growth of Islam, but also disdain of Christians all over the world.

Maybe since Christians got the benefit of the complete Jesus, they should set a better example and more Muslims will follow. Griping about it doesn’t get you anywhere.

 

[planten]

Once again, hogwash. Persecution to mohammed was that others were not buying his new ‘religion’ so after a while he started to kill them.

muslims think that people not wanting their ‘religion’ is persecution so that is why the conversions took place ‘by the sword’.

your mohammed was not a nice guy.

You can say what you like. Muhammad was not a nice guy because he was able to get killed all the nice guys who had come to kill him. Yet the religion of Islam survived. But what about Jesus when he went away and disappeared totally, the disciples thought is better to tell every one that he is lifted up into the sky (which had never been done for any one since the beginning of the world). That was a totally false belief introduced into the religion so that no body goes looking for the alive Jesus walking about.

The worse thing that could happen to any one is that he be rejected and tried and persecuted and crucified by his own people. His own disciples run away, all of them. One of fhis disciples (who was also to get a key for the throne in heavens) should report (betray) Jesus and get him arrested. I feel that it the worst type of defeat or failure for any one. R_not can you understand please. You are ready to abuse Muhammad. But look at your Jesus and his close friend paul who haunted the followers of Jesus.

Since Jesus had not come from the heavens (sky) he could not go to the heavens. That is what he said himself that only the one who came from heavens will go to heavens. Jesus was born here on earth. So he could never go into heaven.

When Jesus had gone away (disappeared completely), his friend paul had the field day. There was no jesus and no disciple in the area. So paul undid what jesus had been teaching all his life. There was no one to correct paul. He had the main part of christianity. His teachings (His pagan greek philosophy) makes a major part of the bible now. Jesus is hardly there in the bible.

Islam did not suffer any such setbacks. There has not been any discontinuity in the Islamic teachings till now. In fact, revivors have been coming in Islam at intervals of every 100 years who put new life into the religion of Islam.

 

[Lapell]

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek but Christians preferred to keep acting like the OT Jews and live by the sword. As we see in Iraq right now and all through the history of Christanity.

So let’s compare Mohammed to Elijah since so many Christians are fighting men like that.

Unless you want to say no Christian should be involved in any wars, as JWs do in accordance with what Jesus taught. Then we can compare with Jesus.

A number of Christians, yes. Not necessarily all of them. But I agree with you that Muhammad was persecuted and that his own people, even his own folks, wanted him dead. And he received rather little help then except from very few people. So most of them were really hostile to him.
And justice in those places were quite viewed, I guess, like justice in the days of the OT, for instance in Elijah’s time. And I suggest that Baal’s priests must have been thought as not willing to repent, not really, and convert to the God of Israel indeed, renouncing every wicked way. They probably were believed to be greatly dangerous to the extent that they would subtly undermine the Israelites’ faith somehow. Hence their execution.

 

[Lapell]

In Islam there must be a similar perception of how justice must be rendered…