Saint Paul and Islam

[R_not]

Very interesting thread, BUT it is sooo long!
I think I need to print it out

I checked out your gentle reminder and found it very interesting. Were you a muslim now in hiding, or running from it? That is what it sounds like when I read your profile.

 

[Lapell]

I do not know about any meeting of paul with apostles. I had read something which paul said himself “I did not go to Jeroshlem. I went to Arabia and damascus.” His later ramblings are well known in the direction away from Jeroshlem to the west side.
The way he was beheaded in the end is also a sure proof that a false prophet will be killed Deut 18:20 ].

And just how do you happen to know that such “proof” is so sure?
Haven’t you ever heard of… judicial errors?
Moreover, you kind of omit that after he went to Arabia and Damascus (by the way, why the small “d”? Because it’s a city and not a country?), “Then, three years later [he] went to Jerusalem to become personally acquainted with Cephas (that’s Greek for Peter). [He] stayed with him for fifteen days.” (Galatians 2, 18)
And later, 14 years later, “James, Cephas and John (who were recognized as the most important people) acknowledged that God had given [Paul] this special gift of telling the Gospel to non-Jews (“those who are not circumcised”), and so they shook hands with Barnabas and [Paul], agreeing to be [their] partners.” (Gal. 2, 9) Do you think they would have agreed had Paul’s preaching been essentially different from the Apostles’ ?

 

[Lapell]

( FYI, I personally believe that it was impossible to memorise the Koran verses at that time since those reciters had no written material to be used as a checklist after Mohammad, and because it would require a miracle to recite all those verses accurately - especially, narratives that differed in order and minor details while the supposed revelation kept adding to them new data.)

Angelos, hasn’t the Old Testament been in the form of oral tradition before being put in writing on parchments? Same with the Gospels…

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, hasn’t the Old Testament been in the form of oral tradition before being put in writing on parchments? Same with the Gospels…

I would like you to remember the differences between the Koran and the Old Testament on the basis of their forms. The OT follows a chronological and logical order with remarkable thematic unity in contrast to the Koran verses that are believed to have been revealed on different occasions: hence they lack chronological order, looking most of the time like jumbled sentences.

Besides, I am using hyperboles in my previous post to give the idea that no assertions related to the accurate preservation of any historical text are without weaknesses. When the Bible is at stake, Muslims ignore the theory that memorisation and recurrent recitation can prove the authenticity of a text written many centuries ago. However, they take refuge in the same theory when the historicity of the Koran is questioned.

Peace,

Angelos N. B.

 

[paarsurrey]

The OT follows a chronological and logical order with remarkable thematic unity in contrast to the Koran verses that are believed to have been revealed on different occasions:

Hi

Quran covers all times, past, present and future, from the Start of Creation to the End. Quran is more concerned with the guidance of humanity and solving its problems rather than describing an inaccurate history put in inaccurate chronoligical order as my friend here believes as a merit for his Relgious Book. Quran concentrates more on covering **CLAIMS and REASONS **of the issues confronting humanity that is not a merit of other Books. The history mentioned in the Books of my friend are not accepted by the Secular Historians; so of what use it is.

I respect your differing viewpoint, that helps to understand.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

What seems to be largely unknown is that Paul was in full communion with the Apostles. He says so himself when he tells about his meeting with the Apostles in Jerusalem…

Hi

Paul was not in full communion with the Apostles in my opinion. He never met Mary or respected her. He only mentioned that he would go to meet them in Jerusalem but that promise was never fullifilled as he knew what would in store for him there. Kindly mention dates when he met the twelve with their name he met and the places where he met them.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

those reciters had no written material to be used as a checklist after Mohammad, and because it would **require a miracle to recite all those verses accurately **

Hi

The memorisers don’t necessarily need a written copy of Quran. The learn verbally from their teacher. Please go to any Mosque i n your vicinity and check for yourself, the miracle is just happening till date.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Angelos; 3411274:

What was John the Baptist (Yahya), a mighty prophet that **was beheaded in the end, according to your beloved Koran **?

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran in this connection, I think you won’t find any verse like that in Quran.

Kindly also provide a list of ProphetsMessengers killed by Jews or otherwise from OTBible or NTBible; you won’t be able to form a list with names and dates when they were killed by Jews for sure. In my opinion even Jesus was not killed on the Cross and miraculously survived and migrated from Judea alongwith Mary to India and many of his trusted disciples also went there, you should have known this, I think. So not even with the name of Jesus your list would start to form.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Hi

Quran covers all times, past, present and future, from the Start of Creation to the End. Quran is more concerned with the guidance of humanity and solving its problems rather than describing an inaccurate history put in inaccurate chronoligical order as my friend here believes as a merit for his Relgious Book. Quran concentrates more on covering **CLAIMS and REASONS **of the issues confronting humanity that is not a merit of other Books. The history mentioned in the Books of my friend are not accepted by the Secular Historians; so of what use it is.

I respect your differing viewpoint, that helps to understand.

Thanks

Yet the Koran lacks chronological and logical order, asking Muslims to fill in the blanks through their fantasies. IMO, the more a person reads the Koran, the further that person away from solutions! The only thing the Koran gives its readers is an infinite number of questions and the constant feeling of suspense. Accordingly, you Muslims are expected to fabricate stories to clear up the foggy air in today’s Koran. (Even your claims concerning Paul and the NT are fruits of efforts to explain the discrepancy between Issa in the Koran and Jesus in the Gospels. Mohammad’s Bible is again mute on this crucial subject)

You personally believe that the stories in the OT are inaccurate? Please go and do some research to find out how Mohammad’s scribes - while copying the OT narratives - mistakenly added Jewish apocryphal literature into the Koran.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

Hi

The memorisers don’t necessarily need a written copy of Quran. The learn verbally from their teacher. Please go to any Mosque i n your vicinity and check for yourself, the miracle is just happening till date.

Thanks

People do need the written copy to check if they recite correctly! Otherwise, any student will learn only to memorise in the same way as his teacher. It is impossible to know if that teacher recites the standardized version of the Koran with no mistakes or personal omission/addition.

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

 

[Angelos]

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran in this connection, I think you won’t find any verse like that in Quran.

Kindly also provide a list of ProphetsMessengers killed by Jews or otherwise from OTBible or NTBible; you won’t be able to form a list with names and dates when they were killed by Jews for sure. I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

Sorry, I almost always forget that the Koran keeps silent about Yahya’s (John the Baptist) prophetic ministry! While reading from the Koran, I sometimes suppose that Mohammad’s scribes regarded Yahya as a mute prophet that could not speak throughout his life. Since there is zero info in the Koran about John after his childhood, there is also nothing about his prophetic ministry and his death - which you apparently deny on no theological or historic basis.

Nevertheless, the Koran recurrently blames Jews for murdering the messengers that were sent them by Allah. For instance:

2: 61 And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.

3: 21. Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.

5: 70. We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

I would ask you to help me devise a list of slayed messengers since your Scripture endorses the same idea of several murdered prophets.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sorry, I almost always forget that the Koran keeps silent about Yahya’s (John the Baptist) prophetic ministry! While reading from the Koran, I sometimes suppose that Mohammad’s scribes regarded Yahya as a mute prophet that could not speak throughout his life. Since there is zero info in the Koran about John after his childhood, there is also nothing about his prophetic ministry and his death - which you apparently deny on no theological or historic basis.

Nevertheless, the Koran recurrently blames Jews for murdering the messengers that were sent them by Allah. For instance:

2: 61 And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.

3: 21. Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.

5: 70. We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

I would ask you to help me devise a list of slayed messengers since your Scripture endorses the same idea of several murdered prophets.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

Hi

I think Quran’s means; the Jews resorted to attempted murder of the ProphestsMessengers in which they never succeeded.

Now please come out with your list from the Bible OT and NT. I think you don’t have any; so don’t get embarrassed my friend, no compulsion.

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Hi

I think Quran’s means; the Jews resorted to attempted murder of the ProphestsMessengers in which they never succeeded.

Now please come out with your list from the Bible OT and NT. I think you don’t have any; so don’t get embarrassed my friend, no compulsion.

Thanks

This is what you only think and can never prove otherwise because you take to reading into the Koran now. It sounds weird to me that the scribes writing down all those verses forgot to distinguish attempts from real deeds.

You prefer choosing this strategy because it saves you from presenting a list of the slain prophets in the Koran.

I do not need a list of the murdered prophets to believe what Jesus says:

Matthew 23: 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not?

Luke 11: 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, who was slain between the altar and the temple. Yea I say to you: It shall be required of this generation.

(Also read what Jews did to prophet Jeremiah)

I wonder if your wish to see a list of names in order to believe is applicable in any case for the Koran too. If the answer is yes, I would like you to start making the list of all the prophets sent by Allah to numerous tribes since the foundation of the world. (If this is too challenging, writing the names of all the indefinite angels and other spiritual creatures in the Koran would be appreciated. I m not forcing you to do so because there is no compulsion in religion!)

Thanks,
Angelos N. B.

 

[Lapell]

I would like you to remember the differences between the Koran and the Old Testament on the basis of their forms. The OT follows a chronological and logical order with remarkable thematic unity in contrast to the Koran verses that are believed to have been revealed on different occasions: hence they lack chronological order, looking most of the time like jumbled sentences.

Besides, I am using hyperboles in my previous post to give the idea that no assertions related to the accurate preservation of any historical text are without weaknesses. When the Bible is at stake, Muslims ignore the theory that memorisation and recurrent recitation can prove the authenticity of a text written many centuries ago. However, they take refuge in the same theory when the historicity of the Koran is questioned.

Peace,

Angelos N. B.

It’s O.K., Angelos! I think I was just backing your point without knowing it. Maybe it just made it a bit clearer…

 

[Angelos]

It’s O.K., Angelos! I think I was just backing your point without knowing it. Maybe it just made it a bit clearer…

Thanks for helping me clarify my statement.

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

 

[Lapell]

Hi

Quran covers all times, past, present and future, from the Start of Creation to the End. Quran is more concerned with the guidance of humanity and solving its problems rather than describing an inaccurate history put in inaccurate chronoligical order as my friend here believes as a merit for his Relgious Book. Quran concentrates more on covering **CLAIMS and REASONS **of the issues confronting humanity that is not a merit of other Books.

Meaning that that the OT and the NT were not meant to do that? How are you so sure YOU know this? If you knew Jewish tradition well, I don’t think you could say a thing like that!

 

[Lapell]

I think Quran’s means; the Jews resorted to attempted murder of the ProphestsMessengers in which they never succeeded.
Now please come out with your list from the Bible OT and NT. I think you don’t have any; so don’t get embarrassed my friend, no compulsion.

paarsurrey, I think that you Muslims seem to believe that because someone is of God they will be prevented from being ever killed, slain or murdered! Angelos answered you that indeed there were prophets who were slaughtered. What about the priests and prophets of the true God who were slaughtered at the time of Elijah the Prophet? When he fled from queen jezabel’s wrath through the desert, he complained to God Almighty about that: God’s men having been slaughtered and “them” wanting to take his life too? You know, there were plenty of prophets in the OT, not just the ones giving their names to OT books!

 

[Lapell]

paarsurrey, have you ever read the book of Job in the Old Testament? It kinda shakes the idea of fair retribution in this world. Job at one point complained, asking why bad things happen to good people. His friends answered that they must have sinned greatly. They said to Job that he must have sinned gravely, and Job protested that he always sought righteousness, always trying to help the poor and the distressed. Therefore, why him? I suppose you never experienced what Job experienced, otherwise you wouldn’t talk as though everyone always deserve their fate… moreover, it makes you look somehow insensitive and unconcerned about your neighbor’s fate! I’m not saying that you are insensitive: God knows you more, much more than I do… But that’s how you may sound.

 

[Lapell]

I do believe that Muslims would benefit much from reading the book of Job.

 

[Lapell]

There exists a retribution, though. But we all will see it effective for sure at the end of time, at the Last Judgment. But here on earth, justice is not always rendered fairly, unfortunately.