Saint Thomas came to Malabar looking for the lost children of Israel

[R_not]

Please find the name “Ahmad” in the OT and NT. You have too many childish imagination. Muhammad just like to find any silly thing to force himself to fit to any religion he knows.

There is a verse in the ancient in the ancient NTBible that Jesus said “Beware of false prophet, the name shall be Ahmad”.

Don’t you find it ironic that muslims are looking to the Bible, the same Bible that they say is corrupted, for links to prove that mohammed is legitimate?

Of course, they discount these types of passages because they do not serve their purpose:

Matthew Chapter 7
15 'Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 You will be able to tell them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a rotten tree bad fruit.
18 A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire.
20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.

 

[Ghosty]

Here’s a question: Is there any evidence at all that the “Gospel of Thomas” was spread among the “St. Thomas Christians”?

Everything I’ve ever read of the “Gospel of St. Thomas” places it in the West (which includes what we today call the Byzantine East), and not among the Christians who actually followed St. Thomas. In fact, the St. Thomas Christians seem to have followed exactly what the orthodox West (again including the Byzantine East, or Eastern Roman Empire) believed about the Gospels, namely that there are Four, and they followed the basic fundamental beliefs of the other Apostolic Christians all over the globe.

If the supposed “Gospel of St. Thomas” was indeed authentic, shouldn’t we see it amongst those ancient Christian bodies that claim descent from St. Thomas’ Apostolic mission? Why do we find that in almost every detail they follow the same Catholic Faith, and this includes those groups that are not in Communion with the Catholic Church today? If anything is testimony to the universality (Catholicity) of Apostolic belief, it seems that it is the Faith of the St. Thomas Christians who spread throughout Central and East Asia, and who survive to modern times despite severe persecution and near extinction (the fact that they even preserved, in some form, the tradition of the Petrine Ministry, even among the non-Catholics, is striking).

I for one have yet to see a shred of evidence that the teaching spread by St. Thomas was anything other than that shared by the Apostolic Churches throughout history; the “Gospel of St. Thomas”, and other associated works, seem to be purely the later work of Western Gnostics, non-Christians in every meaningful sense.

As a side note, the Cross depicted in previous posts is very similar to the Armenian Cross, the Armenians having never fallen to Gnostic beliefs, but representing the most geographically Eastern group of Christians outside of the St. Thomas Christians. Seems like yet further evidence of the continuity of Faith.

The Armenian Cross:

http://www.icmetal.com/church-supply/holly-cross/armenian-cross-grapes.jpg

Peace and God bless!

P.S. I have a tattoo of a variation on the Armenian Cross, in honor of my ancestors, which can be seen in my profile link. It was only recently, long after I received this tattoo, that I learned of how widespread this image was in the Ancient Christian East, outside of the lands of my own people. It should be pointed out that the Armenians were often quite seperated from the “St. Thomas Christians”, even bloodily so, indicating again that this is a truly Apostolic connection, and not one of political expedience.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

Where you took this wrong information from? Those who know me must be laughing. Nevermind; May God Allah YHWH bless you!

Thanks

My dear brother. I was just kidding. I was repeating a same joke made by someone else in another thread. You know, Paar. We always put your posting seriously. When we cannot fit your rationale, we begin to make any fitting of why your faith is so great about Jesus died and buried in India. I must apologize, that I begin to think something funny which may sounds logical.

 

[LUISV]

This is a little off topic - but I see Our Lady of Guadalupe also standing on a crescent moon too. Squashing it - squashing islam.

http://sancta.org/art/olg_full.jpg

Not off topic at all. Our apocalyptic vision of Mary is a woman cloaked with stars, standing on the moon crushing the head of a serpent.
Mabey it will be Mary who brings the muslims to Jesus as she did my ancestors.

 

[swariffin]

Why was the Gospel of Thomas disqualified from the Christian Bible and eventually outlawed? During the reign of Emperor Constantine around the 4th century C.E., the Roman Empire was looking to reconstitute and solidify its power. The Emperor and the existing power structure chose the Pauline sect of Christianity as the “official” religion, which include the epistles of Paul and the Gospels and books from his disciples that form the present-day New Testament.

Teachings from the Gospel of Thomas and other Nag Hammadi texts were seen as a danger to the developing ecclesiastical and political structure because they rejected the authority of the bishops, priests and deacons. Roman Church father Ignatius warned the Christians to “honor and obey the bishop as you would God.” It is quite easy to see why the church councils did not choose the Gospel of Thomas and other similar texts for their Bible.

As a result, for political reasons these texts were banned and later destroyed for the good of Empire and Church. After all, bishops and priests would lose their power and influence with the common people, if the common people learned that Jesus taught they did not need such religious authority/intermediaries of the Church, bishops and priests, and that the Kingdom is within all and is directly accessible to everyone without them; we all are sons/daughters of God.

My dear brother, Supposed you are Muhammad or his immediate successor (Just supposed only, OK). During your time, you see that somebody is distributing things like the Satanic Verses, and
claimed it to be the correct Quran. Further, such satanic verses claimed that Muhammad was not a prophet. What would you do?

Remember that we believe that the later must be tried against the earlier. The appearance of any writings at the later date, does not mean that the earlier becomes obsolete/abrogated. So, the appearance of the Nag Hamadi writing at later date (around 300 AD, and written in ancient Italian, rather than Greek), does not mean that the Nag Hamadi is the truth.

The same thing is with Quran. The appearance of Satanic Verses by Salman Rusdhie (20th century) does not mean that such Satanic Verses abrogates Quran (7th Century). If I follow your logic, you must treat that Satanic Verses as the true one compared to Quran, and represent the hidden teaching avoided by the follower of Muhammad. Thanks to Salman Rusdhie who discover it, or got the revelation from God to unhide it.

 

[paarsurrey]

St. Thomas Christians seem to have followed exactly what the orthodox West (again including the Byzantine East, or Eastern Roman Empire) believed about the Gospels, namely that there are Four,

Hi

I think it was imspossible for St.Thomas or St. Thomas Christians to believ about the Gospels, namely that there were Four Gospels only.

St.Thomas is said to have gone earlier to Kerala, I think 52 AD, when the Four were not yet born in the book form. So what is that St.Thomas carried in writing to Kerala.

You will please agree that your narrative misses this important aspect.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Adam and Eve

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

There were many Marys and John in the time of Jesus. May people had the same names.
I am not sure that Thomas who went to Kerala , is also the same Thomas who went to Central Asia.
I am not a scholar, so I have to ask certain information that I don’t know.

I love Jesus

Thanks

 

[Ghosty]

Hi

I think it was imspossible for St.Thomas or St. Thomas Christians to believ about the Gospels, namely that there were Four Gospels only.

St.Thomas is said to have gone earlier to Kerala, I think 52 AD, when the Four were not yet born in the book form. So what is that St.Thomas carried in writing to Kerala.

You will please agree that your narrative misses this important aspect.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Adam and Eve

Thanks

The St. Thomas Christians were not cut off from the rest of Christianity, not by a long shot. St. Thomas didn’t bring the Gospels; they were written down later, but he did bring the Gospel of Christ and the people he converted were in line with the converts of other Apostles across the world. As the four Gospels were written and spread, they spread to the Apostolic Christians everywhere, including those in India and China.

The Gospel of Thomas, however, did not spread everywhere; it was made in the West, despite St. Thomas not having gone to the West, and it’s not found in the far East, where St. Thomas actually travelled and taught.

Peace and God bless!

 

[paarsurrey]

The St. Thomas Christians were not cut off from the rest of Christianity, not by a long shot. St. Thomas didn’t bring the Gospels; they were written down later, but he did bring the Gospel of Christ

Hi

In those times,it was not possible to have a close contact with Judea from Kerala, so there are some grey areas that St.Thomas brought or later imported any Gospel of Jesus from Judea.

Kindly think on these lines.

Maybe some Jewish Christian a follower of St.Thomas, reading this post, could offer a solution or a food of thought on it. Please

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Adam and Eve.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

In those times,it was not possible to have a close contact with Judea from Kerala, so there are some grey areas that St.Thomas brought or later imported any Gospel of Jesus from Judea.

Kindly think on these lines.

Maybe some Jewish Christian a follower of St.Thomas, reading this post, could offer a solution or a food of thought on it. Please

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Adam and Eve.

Thanks

and the people he converted were in line with the converts of other Apostles across the world.

I thought maybe to point out what the other poster wrote.

 

[LDNCatholic]

In those times,it was not possible to have a close contact with Judea from Kerala, so there are some grey areas that St.Thomas brought or later imported any Gospel of Jesus from Judea.

Yes, it was, in fact, before Islam turned up and closed the roads through Persia and the sea routes through the Red Sea ports there was quite a bit of intertrading going on between Europe, the Middle East, South Asia, East Asia and even Indonesia and as far as modern day Kenya.

From the article: Roman trade diaspora frequented the ancient Tamil country (present day Southern India), securing trade with the seafaring Tamil kingdoms of the Chola, Pandyan and Chera dynasties and establishing trading settlements which remained long after the fall of the Western Roman empire. They also outlasted Byzantium’s loss of the Egypt and the Red Sea ports (ca. 639-645 CE) under the pressure of Jihad and Islam, which had been used to secure trade with India by the Greco-Roman world since the time of the Ptolemaic dynasty a few decades before the start of the Common Era.

The picture was too large to post so have a look at the trade routes map at the top of the article.

 

[paarsurrey]

The St. Thomas Christians were not cut off from the rest of Christianity, not by a long shot. St. Thomas didn’t bring the Gospels; they were written down later, but he did bring the Gospel of Christ and the people he converted were in line with the converts of other Apostles across the world. As the four Gospels were written and spread, they spread to the Apostolic Christians everywhere, including those in India and China.

Hi

While surfing on the internet I find and share with you:

nasrani.net/2007/12/30/thomas-malabar-connection-the-jewish-heritage-a-biblical-analytical-approach/
there are four groups in Kerala who belong to Eastern Rites; apart from Syro-Malabar Catholics, there are - 1. Syro-Malankarra Catholics (who came into full communion with Rome more recently but do not have a Cardinal in the Vatican), and two non-Catholic Orthodox: Jacobites, and the more Protestant oriented Marthomites.
#40 Until the portuguese come to India, syriac christians did not know who is Pope and where is Rome.
Unquote

So, I think, there were no close contact with Judea or Rome or the Four Gosples.

This close contact only developed when they were coerced to Catholicism by the Portuguese.

The Jewish Christian preferred to keep their separate identity. If they were the same as Catholics, then why should they object in the first place.

I love Jesus.

Thanks

 

[LDNCatholic]

Another Article of interest

**From the Article:**Mesopotamian inscriptions indicate that Indian traders from the Indus valley — carrying copper, hardwoods, ivory, pearls, carnelian, and gold — were active in Mesopotamia during the reign of Sargon of Akkad (ca. 2300 BCE).

More than 2000 years before St. Thomas left Judea for India, The Indians had come as far as Mesopotamia, which any reasonable person will tell you is not far from Judea. The Indians also had the world’s first port at Lothal.

**From the same article:**Clement of Alexandria mentions the Buddha in his writings and other Indian religions find mentions in other texts of the period. The Indians were present in Alexandria and the Christian and Jew settlers from Rome continued to live in India long after the fall of the Roman empire, which resulted in Rome’s loss of the Red Sea ports, previously used to secure trade with India by the Greco-Roman world since the time of the Ptolemaic dynasty.

A quote from an article regarding Clement of Alexandria (c.150 - 211/216 CE):Clement’s birthplace is not known with certainty. Athens is named as his birthplace by the sixth-century Epiphanius Scholasticus, and this is supported by the classical quality of his Greek. His parents seem to have been wealthy pagans of some social standing. The thoroughness of his education is shown by his constant quotation of the Greek poets and philosophers. He travelled in Greece, Italy, Palestine, and finally Egypt.

Something to think about. Although you may not read this as you have not replied to my posts since I asked you not to use my posts without permission, I hope that this will prove the point to anyone else who may be reading. Travel, trade and intellectual collaboration was not only possible between India and the Middle East, it is historical fact.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

While surfing on the internet, I find the following:

gnosis.org/library/actthom.htm

The Acts of Thomas

And while he thus spake and thought, it chanced that there was there a certain merchant come from India whose name was Abbanes, sent from the King Gundaphorus [Gundaphorus is a historical personage who reigned over a part of India in the first century after Christ. His coins bear his name in Greek, as Hyndopheres], and having commandment from him to buy a carpenter and bring him unto him.

Now the Lord seeing him walking in the market-place at noon said unto him: Wouldest thou buy a carpenter? And he said to him: Yea. And the Lord said to him: I have a slave that is a carpenter and I desire to sell him. And so saying he showed him Thomas afar off, and agreed with him for three litrae of silver unstamped, and wrote a deed of sale, saying: I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians.

And when the deed was finished, the Saviour took Judas Thomas and led him away to Abbanes the merchant, and when Abbanes saw him he said unto him: Is this thy master? And the apostle said: Yea, he is my Lord. And he said: I have bought thee of him. And thy apostle held his peace.

3 And on the day following the apostle arose early, and having prayed and besought the Lord he said: I will go whither thou wilt, Lord Jesus: thy will be done. And he departed unto Abbanes the merchant, taking with him nothing at all save only his price. For the Lord had given it unto him, saying: Let thy price also be with thee, together with my grace, wheresoever thou goest.

gnosis.org/library/actthom.htm

So, it was Jesus himself who sold the hesitant Judas Thomas Didymus to India, without any Four Gospels, after the event of Crucifixion.

Only those who are steadfast on your faith and who are interested in strengthening their faith with research may comment, please.

I love Jesus

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

While surfing on the internet, I find the following:

gnosis.org/library/actthom.htm

The Acts of Thomas

And while he thus spake and thought, it chanced that there was there a certain merchant come from India whose name was Abbanes, sent from the King Gundaphorus [Gundaphorus is a historical personage who reigned over a part of India in the first century after Christ. His coins bear his name in Greek, as Hyndopheres], and having commandment from him to buy a carpenter and bring him unto him.

Now the Lord seeing him walking in the market-place at noon said unto him: Wouldest thou buy a carpenter? And he said to him: Yea. And the Lord said to him: I have a slave that is a carpenter and I desire to sell him. And so saying he showed him Thomas afar off, and agreed with him for three litrae of silver unstamped, and wrote a deed of sale, saying: I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians.

And when the deed was finished, the Saviour took Judas Thomas and led him away to Abbanes the merchant, and when Abbanes saw him he said unto him: Is this thy master? And the apostle said: Yea, he is my Lord. And he said: I have bought thee of him. And thy apostle held his peace.

3 And on the day following the apostle arose early, and having prayed and besought the Lord he said: I will go whither thou wilt, Lord Jesus: thy will be done. And he departed unto Abbanes the merchant, taking with him nothing at all save only his price. For the Lord had given it unto him, saying: Let thy price also be with thee, together with my grace, wheresoever thou goest.

gnosis.org/library/actthom.htm

So, it was Jesus himself who sold the hesitant Judas Thomas Didymus to India, without any Four Gospels, after the event of Crucifixion.

Only those who are steadfast on faith and who are interested in strengthening their faith with research may comment, please.

I love Jesus

Thanks

 

[Ghosty]

Paarsurey: Sorry, but there was near-constant contact between India and the West during the times of the Early Church. That much is such common knowledge and so well documented that it doesn’t even bear linking; after all, if contact and trade were so difficult, there wouldn’t even BE Jews in India to begin with. Even in the time of St. Augustine, during the collapse of Western Rome (when Rome was far less extensive and stable in foreign trade than it had been during the time of Christ), he refers casually to items traded from India in his works, expecting his audience to be familiar with them.

Despite this back-and-forth trading, there seems to be no evidence that the Gospel of St. Thomas was ever found among the Christians of St. Thomas. Why is this?

Peace and God bless!

 

[LDNCatholic]

Paarsurey: Sorry, but there was near-constant contact between India and the West during the times of the Early Church. That much is such common knowledge and well documented that it doesn’t even bear linking.

 

[Ghosty]

Sorry, no offense meant to anyone. I just get frustrated when someone makes claims that are easily debunked by a simple search in google of “rome india trade”, where you can find pictures of the circa-Christ Roman coins found in India (Roman currency was actually in regular circulation there during the first century A.D.).

In such cases I tend to cut through the minutiae and just state my view, assuming that anyone interested will do the tiniest amount of research on the subject.

Your links are great, though. Don’t let my snarkiness get in the way, I’m just rather short on these kinds of topics which involve matters “close to home”.

Peace and God bless!

 

[LUISV]

Hi

I think it was imspossible for St.Thomas or St. Thomas Christians to believ about the Gospels, namely that there were Four Gospels only.

St.Thomas is said to have gone earlier to Kerala, I think 52 AD, when the Four were not yet born in the book form. So what is that St.Thomas carried in writing to Kerala.

You will please agree that your narrative misses this important aspect.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Adam and Eve

Thanks

Hi Paar,

Let me let you in a little piece of Christian mystical theology. The Apostles were a special group. They, each one of them, had within him full authority as granted by Jesus. All who heard them speak would understand them. It was as if they spoke every language on earth. When they spoke about Jesus they spoke from first hand experience. They had the authority to perform miracles, cast out demons and forgive sins. All in the name of Jesus. They were living Gospels. One miracle that gets down played quite a bit if the fact that where ever an Apostle founded a Church those Christians would believe, act and worship in very similar ways. The foundation was laid for a universal, a Catholic, Church.
I hope that clears thing up for you. When you speek of an Apostle evangelizing, remember, he didn’t need books to do it.