Saints in Catholic Church not biblical

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AmosTown said:
Why is your question more important than mine. I asked my question first
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It has been explained to you that your question is a trick question. If your beliefs are embarrassing, or unbiblical, then I can understand why you will not reveal them. They aren’t are they?
 
po18guy said:
It has been explained to you that your question is a trick question. If your beliefs are embarrassing, or unbiblical, then I can understand why you will not reveal them. They aren’t are they?
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You keep saying my question is a trick question. What is tricky about it?
 
SonCatcher said:
It is foundational to understanding the purpose of our invoking of the Saints in the first place.

If you don’t understand the doctrine, that is an acceptable answer. As I said, however, it is held by all Christians. Although Protestants often use other words to describe it.
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You must pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic. Some of the answers I got were yes and some no. You weighed in on the side of “yes” I think. So my question has been answered by you.
 
This entire “unbiblical” assertion is the fruit of a violation of the bible to begin with. Private interpretation is forbidden. We know from the bible that the ignorant and unstable twist and distort the scriptures. Virtually every division in the Body of Christ has its source in the man-made doctrine of placing man’s ego in charge of twisting God’s word according to personal preferences.
 
AmosTown said:
You must pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic. Some of the answers I got were yes and some no. You weighed in on the side of “yes” I think. So my question has been answered by you.
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AmosTown, that the saints exist, that they can intercede for us before God, and that it is proper to ask (pray) them to do so are all firm Catholic teaching.

Disagreeing with these teachings doesn’t automatically make one a non-Catholic, though it does make one a disobedient or dissenting Catholic. It’s very hard to actually stop being a Catholic after baptism.

I think what people are saying when they say that a Catholic is not required to practice devotion to Mary or the other saints is that additional, private devotions are always optional and up to the individual. No one is required to wear the various scapulars, for example, or even to pray the rosary. That doesn’t mean that one is permitted to disregard the teachings of the Church or to refuse participation in the public prayer of the Church.

Usagi
 
Usagi said:
AmosTown, that the saints exist, that they can intercede for us before God, and that it is proper to ask (pray) them to do so are all firm Catholic teaching.

Disagreeing with these teachings doesn’t automatically make one a non-Catholic, though it does make one a disobedient or dissenting Catholic. It’s very hard to actually stop being a Catholic after baptism.

I think what people are saying when they say that a Catholic is not required to practice devotion to Mary or the other saints is that additional, private devotions are always optional and up to the individual. No one is required to wear the various scapulars, for example, or even to pray the rosary. That doesn’t mean that one is permitted to disregard the teachings of the Church or to refuse participation in the public prayer of the Church.

Usagi
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If you go to mass every day, is that devotion?
 
Usagi said:
AmosTown, that the saints exist, that they can intercede for us before God, and that it is proper to ask (pray) them to do so are all firm Catholic teaching.

Disagreeing with these teachings doesn’t automatically make one a non-Catholic, though it does make one a disobedient or dissenting Catholic. It’s very hard to actually stop being a Catholic after baptism.

I think what people are saying when they say that a Catholic is not required to practice devotion to Mary or the other saints is that additional, private devotions are always optional and up to the individual. No one is required to wear the various scapulars, for example, or even to pray the rosary. That doesn’t mean that one is permitted to disregard the teachings of the Church or to refuse participation in the public prayer of the Church.

Usagi
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If I go to mass every day and pray to Mary every day in Mass, isn’t that devotion? What do you mean? Are you trying to say Catholics can pray empty prayers they don’t mean and still be Catholic? Isn’t that a grave sin?

Also, isn’t it the worst sin to intently and knowingly exercise free will in opposition to the Holy Spirit?

Isn’t Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?
 
AmosTown said:
If I go to mass every day and pray to Mary every day in Mass, isn’t that devotion?
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Yes, but not one of the optional private devotions that are being discussed.
What do you mean? Are you trying to say Catholics can pray empty prayers they don’t mean and still be Catholic? Isn’t that a grave sin?
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Yes, it would be. Such a person would still be a Catholic, though. Sinning, even mortally, doesn’t “de-Catholicize” you.
Also, isn’t it the worst sin to intently and knowingly exercise free will in opposition to the Holy Spirit?
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Isn’t Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit?
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Yes and yes, but I’m not sure what that has to do with your other question.

Usagi
 
Our brother has yet to give the slightest hint of the problem that he has with the concept of the communion of Saints. That would make things so much easier.
 
Usagi said:
Yes, but not one of the optional private devotions that are being discussed.
Usagi
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So Catholics must publicly pray with devotion to Mary and the saints but the have the option to not pray to Mary and saints in private.
 
AmosTown said:
If you go to mass every day, is that devotion?
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Mass is the worship of God and partaking in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ through receiving the Holy Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Personal devotions to Mary and/or the saints may be performed before, during, or after Mass.

But let us be very clear with you, the Mass is the worship of God. Please don’t try to bend this imply something else.

Ran
 
Ranp said:
Mass is the worship of God and partaking in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ through receiving the Holy Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Personal devotions to Mary and/or the saints may be performed before, during, or after Mass.

But let us be very clear with you, the Mass is the worship of God. Please don’t try to bend this imply something else.

Ran
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Dear sir,

I don’t recall ever saying, suggesting or implying that Mass is not the worship of God. I read this quote in the missal:

“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X

This means that all prayers in the mass are to be said with devotion and conviction. Catholics may not exclude ANY intercessory prayers to the saints and to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Therefore, to be Catholic one must pray to Mary and the saints in the mass with the same ‘holy feelings’ and devotion as prayed throughout the mass.

Therefore, if a Catholic prays the mass with devotion then automatically a Catholic must pray to Mary and the saints with the same devotion, that is, from the heart and with holy feelings.

That is my understanding of what I’ve been reading and what some of the responses on this forum have expressed.
 
Ranp said:
Mass is the worship of God and partaking in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ through receiving the Holy Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Personal devotions to Mary and/or the saints may be performed before, during, or after Mass.

But let us be very clear with you, the Mass is the worship of God. Please don’t try to bend this imply something else.

Ran
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When praying to Mary and the saints with holy feelings it is a personal devotion expressed public and in common with the congregation and the priest. This is because prayer must always be prayed sincerely and with conviction and faith, with ‘holy feelings’, i.e. devotion.

“The Holy Mass [The Divine Liturgy] is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X
 
AmosTown said:
You must pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic. Some of the answers I got were yes and some no. You weighed in on the side of “yes” I think. So my question has been answered by you.
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I have not addressed your question at all in this thread (nor in your other one). I only observed that others have answered it already.

I am really trying to help you. However, to do so it is necessary for you to reveal your present formation. A doctor can’t heal a patient who won’t reveal his symptoms and a teacher cannot instruct his students if he doesn’t know what they already know.
 
AmosTown said:
When praying to Mary and the saints with holy feelings it is a personal devotion expressed public and in common with the congregation and the priest. This is because prayer must always be prayed sincerely and with conviction and faith, with ‘holy feelings’, i.e. devotion.
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Are you the author of these words Amos?
 
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