Saints with sinful pasts

[catharina]

My point - and question - to both of you:

what makes you believe he killed people?
He was never even a judge, condemning people to death.

Would you cite references for your claims, please?
Thank you.

 

[Dauphin]

Ah, but my point was that he killed people, rather than trying to take them back to the faith. I consider that a sin. But you’re right, he wasn’t an outright murderer. But I never called him one.

And what do you think of St. Thomas Aquinas, who in the Summa Theologica says clearly that the death penalty is a suitable punishment for heresy?

 

[catharina]

And what do you think of St. Thomas Aquinas, who in the Summa Theologica says clearly that the death penalty is a suitable punishment for heresy?

Thank you.
It was the law of the Church and the land at the time.

 

[Walden]

My point - and question - to both of you:

what makes you believe he killed people?
He was never even a judge, condemning people to death.

Would you cite references for your claims, please?
Thank you.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent):

As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.

Not taking a position on it…just citing a reference.

 

[catharina]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent):

As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.

Not taking a position on it…just citing a reference.

Excellent - and much as I thought.
Thanks.
It was the law of the Church and the land.

As he said when Henry defected: I love my king but I love my faith more.

(paraphrase)

 

[strugglingalong]

I’m trying to find names of saints that had sinful pasts. I know someone (not a friend) that does not believe that once a person sins they can be redeamed. So I’m trying to find info on saints that had sinful pasts to prove that every sinner can be redeamed.

St. Margaret of Cortona!!! She was called the second Magdalene. You can read of her here: ewtn.com/library/MARY/STMAGT.htm

Reading about her helped me a lot!

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I’m trying to find names of saints that had sinful pasts.** I know someone (not a friend) that does not believe that once a person sins they can be redeamed.** So I’m trying to find info on saints that had sinful pasts to prove that every sinner can be redeamed.

bolding = mine

If anyone believes such error, they deny the very fruits of the Crucifixion and discount the very prayer of Jesus on the cross, as his first words were, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Jamie1001]

Check out the “Confessions of St. Augustine,” one of the world’s great religious autobiographies. His battle with sin was monumental, awesome, inspiring.

 

[KestrelRose]

I have an idea your friend knows the arguments and the pros and cons of religion. I would suggest
“The Secrets of the Rosary” by Saint Louis Marie de Montfort. This speaks to the heart and soul rather than the mind.

It’s a strange situation. This guy I know is truely a good person, but has major flaws. He is very moral. I’m not sure though that he’s even Christian, but he seems very interested when I start talking about my religion.
He has a lot of hate though. It’s strange, this is the kind of person I would never become aquainted with, at all. It’s the kind of person I would stay far away from. But I feel in inner calling to help him, like God is asking me to help this person find him. So, I’m digging deep to find as much patience as I can.
Luckily the guy seems to respect me. He’s says he feels he has truely met a good person in me, and respects how I am very peaceful and loving to all people.

And any suggestions would be really appreciated. Books I can recomend to this guy, anything.

 

[Filius99993]

Thank you.
It was the law of the Church and the land at the time.

That I know. But although the Church accepted it at the time, what is truly moral doesn’t change. What if, hypothetically, somehow the Church allowed for contraceptive measures like so many people want it to. It’d be the law of the Church and the law of the land at the time. But would it be any more moral? See what I mean?

 

[catharina]

That I know. But although the Church accepted it at the time, what is truly moral doesn’t change. What if, hypothetically, somehow the Church allowed for contraceptive measures like so many people want it to. It’d be the law of the Church and the law of the land at the time. But would it be any more moral? See what I mean?

I recognize what you might be trying to say but I reject your analogy. To this very day in 2008, the Church has NOT banned the use of the death penalty. It declares it’s rarely needed and discourages the use of it, but it has NOT banned it. Forget contraception or anything else that might cross your mind. I’m saying very simply that St. Thomas More is not a murderer, nor has the Church ever considered him to be a murderer or a killer. The Church has declared his sanctity. He is a martyr and patron of lawyers. See what I mean???

 

[Matt33]

I didn’t think that we regard Mary as a saint. She’s in a different category, I believe.

Right now, St. Thomas More comes to mind. He killed lots and lots of people. But in the end he ended up dying for the faith.

From the Marian Library/Marian Reasearch Institute…

Bold Mine…

Q: Is Mary a Saint? Was she ever canonized?

A: When speaking of Saints we think of a sometimes long process of canonization in the course of which close scrutiny of the future saint is conducted by Roman authorities, and, at the end of which the pope officially proclaims sainthood. The two decisive criteria for the proclamation of sainthood are heroic practice of virtues (or martyrdom) and miracles. The first papal canonization of which there are positive documents was that of Saint Udalricus in 973. It is only after a long period of time, from Pope Gregory IX (1234), Sixtus V (1588), Urban VIII (1642) to Benedict XIV (1738) that all rules and guidelines on how to “make a saint” were promulgated. But this is not to say that there were no saints before 973. Canonization or not, a saint has always been defined as a close follower of Christ, the closer, the better.

Following Christ means doing as he does, and -as much as possible- being as he is. Early Christians believed that martyrs were perfect followers of Christ and saints because they had shown the supreme proof of love by giving their lives for Christ. Later on this was extended to people who defended the faith and excelled in Christian faith (doctrine, charity, virtue, austere life, etc.). In all of this the likeness, proximity, intimacy with and the following of Christ remains of paramount importance. Here is the real reason why Mary is a Saint.

Mary has been the first and faithful disciple of her son as his mother, educator, follower to the foot of the cross, and steward of his legacy and mission among the first Christians. Mary’s cooperation for the sake of the world at the side of her son continues even now and until the end of times. All of this was and is possible because of God’s special love and help, promised to her by the angel at the Annunciation and reiterated by Elizabeth during Mary’s visit. To be blessed or full of grace means to have the Spirit of God, which is also the Spirit of Christ. We all receive this Spirit that Mary had received in a special way. It helps us to make our lives ever more like that of Christ, in other words, to become Saints. It is in this sense that the Church recognizes in Mary the greatest of all Saints.

 

[catharina]

From the Marian Library/Marian Reasearch Institute…

Bold Mine…

matt33, bravo for the quote, esp this part: IT IS IN THIS SENSE THAT THE CHURCH RECOGNIZES IN MARY THE GREATEST OF ALL SAINTS. There are parishes, chapels, retreathouses, convents, novitiates and seminaries all across the world named St. Mary’s for the mother of Our Lord.

 

[JaMc]

I’m not sure though that he’s even Christian,

. . . .

And any suggestions would be really appreciated. Books I can recomend to this guy, anything.

Well, I think that he is not a Christian is pretty obvious - even the most radical fundamentalist Christian sects believe that sinners can be saved - the main differences between the various Protestant groups, or Protestants v. Catholics, on the issue of sin and salvation are what constitutes a “sin” or a “sinner” and how he can be saved (issues regarding those believing in pre-destinantion aside).

The first book I’d recommend that he read is the Bible, especially the Gospels. Others can and have pulled out some good scripture passages regarding the salvation of sinners as well.

 

[catharina]

Well, I think that he is not a Christian is pretty obvious - even the most radical fundamentalist Christian sects believe that sinners can be saved - the main differences between the various Protestant groups, or Protestants v. Catholics, on the issue of sin and salvation are what constitutes a “sin” or a “sinner” and how he can be saved (issues regarding those believing in pre-destinantion aside).

The first book I’d recommend that he read is the Bible, especially the Gospels. Others can and have pulled out some good scripture passages regarding the salvation of sinners as well.

Agree. ALWAYS the best advice: read the Gospels! Amen!!

 

[SunnyGem]

It’s a strange situation. This guy I know is truely a good person, but has major flaws. He is very moral. I’m not sure though that he’s even Christian, but he seems very interested when I start talking about my religion.
He has a lot of hate though. It’s strange, this is the kind of person I would never become aquainted with, at all. It’s the kind of person I would stay far away from. But I feel in inner calling to help him, like God is asking me to help this person find him. So, I’m digging deep to find as much patience as I can.
Luckily the guy seems to respect me. He’s says he feels he has truely met a good person in me, and respects how I am very peaceful and loving to all people.

And any suggestions would be really appreciated. Books I can recomend to this guy, anything.

I can certainly identify with the feeling that having sinned you can feel you’re no good anymore. The devil likes to discourage us when we’ve fallen down, he wants us to stay away from Jesus. Of course this is the time to draw as close to God as possible! but it’s not always easy. How about the Prodigal Son story? I think most people know that even if they’re not Christian. It’s a good comparison to how God forgives us.

southwellbooks.com/prodigal-son-the-1497-p.asp

I can’t recommend this book as it’s one I haven’t read yet, but Southwell Books in general are excellent.

There is also a book of Fr Mateo’s conferences which unfortunately maybe out of print. I was given it specifically by my spiritual director to grow in confidence in Jesus. But if you can find it the name is Jesus The King of Love - conferences by Fr Mateo. There is a particular poignant story of the Bethany home (the home of Lazarus, Martha, and Mary Magdalen) it brings tears to my eyes everytime I read it, about how each time Jesus visited them their hearts yearned more and more towards him. Fr Mateo urges again and again that Jesus wants us to confide in Him all that is within our hearts whether it be joy or sorrow. It certainly helps me to keep trying

I wish you all the best in helping this man :yup:

 

[bpbasilphx]

There’s St. Moses the Ethiopian who was the leader of a criminal gang and became one of the most famous of the early Desert Fathers.

And on the Byzantine Calendar, there are only two Sundays dedicated to female saints, and both of them had–to put it sweetly–interesting pasts: the Samaritan Woman of John 4 (traditionally named St. Photini) and St. Mary of Egypt.

Sr. Benedicta Ward, SLG, an Anglican nun, wrote a book about others: THE HARLOTS OF THE DESERT. (One reviewer said this title was misleading; they might have been harlots in the city, but they were saints in the desert.)

 

[Filius99993]

I recognize what you might be trying to say but I reject your analogy. To this very day in 2008, the Church has NOT banned the use of the death penalty. It declares it’s rarely needed and discourages the use of it, but it has NOT banned it. Forget contraception or anything else that might cross your mind. I’m saying very simply that St. Thomas More is not a murderer, nor has the Church ever considered him to be a murderer or a killer. The Church has declared his sanctity. He is a martyr and patron of lawyers. See what I mean???

But was it needed? Would it have been possible to convert the heretics without killing them? They weren’t killing anyone, and it could’ve been possible to confine them. Unless they happened to be psychotic.

 

[catharina]

But was it needed? Would it have been possible to convert the heretics without killing them? They weren’t killing anyone, and it could’ve been possible to confine them. Unless they happened to be psychotic.

Might I (again) remind you that even today, this nation is loyal to the use of the death penalty and so far, tragically, a majority of Christians support it - although life imprisonment could spare lives. Do you support what the Chrcuh teaches today regarding the death penalty - or do you turn a blind eye to the use of it?

 

[catharina]

Also, filius9etc., I suggest you re-adjust your thinking re Thomas More who have never been considered a murderer or a killer by the Church … and re-adjust your thinking about Jesus’ mother Mary who has aways been considered a saint by the Church.