Salvation and faith+works

[ajac]

If salvation requires faith+works, and confession objectively forgives you of all of your sins, then does that mean salvation could be attained without works if someone just went to confession right before they died? If so, how is that not contradictory?

 

[St.Martin_de_Porres]

wouldnt the sacrament of reconciliation itself be a “work”

 

[Todd_Easton]

Salvation takes faith and love. As you pointed out, it is not always possible for love to manifest itself in good works.

 

[Duckling]

“I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.” John 6:47

In the end, God knows the heart.

 

[whyeyeman]

Salvation is not by works, but works are necessary for salvation.

 

[Boler]

If salvation requires only faith, then wouldn’t even the demons (James 2:19) be saved? How is that not contradictory?

 

[whyeyeman]

Salvation requires good works, but it is not the good works which gain you the salvation.

 

[obvious_ron]

Please explain… I’ve recently been studying up on my Catholic faith and am struggling to understand. I keep looking to the Ethiopian eunuch. (Perhaps he’s my patron saint.) He reads scripture, but looks for guidance. I’ve been attending a Protestant church fairly regularly, and the thought of grace and salvation and forgiveness being free gifts that we just accept is an attractive concept.

Sacramental theology is beginning to confuse me. Some Protestant understandings see their “sacraments” to be outward signs of inward realities. Like getting baptized to externally testify to your acceptance of Christ as your Savior. Or getting married to externally testify to the union that already exists. But in the Catholic Church, the sacraments are required to make happen forgiveness (sacrament of penance) or salvation (sacrament of baptism) or union (sacrament of marriage).

Please help…

 

[whyeyeman]

Salvation is a free gift. However, when God sends us the graces necessary for our salvation, we have the ability to reject them. This is what the Protestants miss.

 

[whyeyeman]

As for the sacraments, these are the means by which we are given what Christ gained for us when he was crucified. These were established by Christ himself and were last down through the ages, to the present day, as this means.

 

[Todd_Easton]

As for the sacraments, these are the means by which we are given what Christ gained for us when he was crucified. These were established by Christ himself and were last down through the ages, to the present day, as this means.

Yes, the sacraments are the ordinary means by which we are given what Christ gained for us. However, in extraordinary circumstances God can give us what Christ gained for us apart from the sacraments.

 

[fhansen]

If salvation requires faith+works, and confession objectively forgives you of all of your sins, then does that mean salvation could be attained without works if someone just went to confession right before they died? If so, how is that not contradictory?

God expects us to do the best we can with the gifts we’re given. We don’t gain or lose salvation based on technicalities. Read the Parable of the Talents to see how this plays out. Luke 12:48 also applies here.

In any case, as another poster said, God judges by the heart. External acts, such as those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46, reveal the condition of the heart to us, which is why such acts or good works can form the basis on which we’re judged. In the end, as the Catechism teaches, quoting St John of the Cross, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

 

[MT1926]

Sacramental theology is beginning to confuse me.

Welcome to the club. Just keep in mind that understanding every detail is not a requirement of salvation. I was listening to Dr. Anders yesterday and he points out that (even though it is a good thing) reading a fully understanding the Bible is not a requirement of salvation. He pointed out that is why Jesus left us a visible shepherd here on earth, to guide us to the truth. Basically, Jesus made it super easy to accept the truth without having to wrap our brains around it. The problem is that human nature has a problem with authority which is why it isn’t an attractive concept.

Some Protestant understandings see their “sacraments” to be outward signs of inward realities.

This is the thing that confuses me? If salvation was free why does a protestant have to perform an outward sign to accept Christ as their Savior? Wouldn’t that be more of a work than a baby, who has done nothing, being baptized? Knowing that Jesus commanded all to be Baptized (Matthew 28:19), can they freely refuse to perform the external sign and still be saved? That is the question I would want answered? Logically speaking if works are not a requirement and it is just a sign and doesn’t convey Grace then it doesn’t need to be done. If it does then it must be more than just an outward sign.

But in the Catholic Church, the sacraments are required to make happen forgiveness (sacrament of penance)

This is not totally true. We can, do and should go directly to God. I pray every night…
Matthew 6:9 Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.[a]
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.**

However, God also gave us the sacrament of penance. Haven’t you ever committed a sin that you just can’t get off your mind? I sure have. No matter how many times you tell God sorry it keeps creeping back in your mind. Well that is one of the reasons why He gave us confession. Talking to the priests gives us the assurance of forgiveness, the priest usually gives me advise to avoid the sin again. Going back to the same priest (face to face) holds me accountable to try and avoid that sin again. When the priests says I absolve you of your sins, we have that assurance. What a gift Jesus left us, it’s sad that some see it only as a requirement to “make it happen”.

On a final note. Salvation is a free gift of God. However, we need to love God by cooperating with this free gift. The sacraments are not “required” to receive His love. However, if we truly love God we should be willing to freely do all that He asks. Just because we cooperate doesn’t mean we are earning His love.

The final question I would ask is…Since grace and salvation and forgiveness are all free gifts, do we have to Love God in order to be saved? Keep in mind Love is the greatest of all Works.

God Bless

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve been attending a Protestant church fairly regularly, and the thought of grace and salvation and forgiveness being free gifts that we just accept is an attractive concept.

It is attractive!

… that is, until you realize the implication: if it’s all gift, and our cooperation isn’t necessary, then God is the cruelest deity possible – after all, He puts us here, subjects us to all sorts of pain and suffering, and in the end, nothing that we do ever matters, even a bit! It’s like torturing an animal just so that you can heal it and set it free! That’s horrifying!

On the other hand, if our actions do matter, then our reaction to suffering is heroic! When we suffer, we look to God and say “this suffering doesn’t matter to me, because I’m going to cooperate with your grace to get through it!” (in just the way that Paul talks about in Romans!).

So… Reformation theology has a big problem: either it’s “all gift”, in which case, our actions and our lives have no meaning… or it’s not all gift, in which case, “salvation through faith alone” is untrue.

 

[Senneville]

The response I was considering when I read yours. Thanks.

 

[Gorgias]

If salvation requires faith+works, and confession objectively forgives you of all of your sins, then does that mean salvation could be attained without works if someone just went to confession right before they died? If so, how is that not contradictory?

Let’s tease this out a little bit. After all, we could take a couple different things from your thought experiment.

I think what you’re trying to say is that a person could decide – freely and consciously – to do exactly zero good works throughout his entire life. That is, he could look at each opportunity to cooperate with the grace God gives him and say, “nope… not gonna do it!”. Then, he plans, at the end of his life, he’ll pop up in the confessional and say “hey! I want absolved!”

This is known as the sin of ‘presumption’. It, itself, is a sin, and if unconfessed… well, let’s just say that “salvation could not be attained”, so your thought experiment doesn’t work.

But, what if, at the end of his life, he truly realizes the evil he’s done, and truly repents, and confesses not only that he’s failed to cooperate with God’s grace, but has done so consciously. As others have mentioned, reaching out to God in this way is cooperation with God’s grace, so although he does attain to salvation, your thought experiment breaks here, too.

So… not sure how you might conceive of the thought experiment working. Perhaps you have additional notions in mind to help clarify what you’re thinking?

 

[lanman87]

This is the thing that confuses me? If salvation was free why does a protestant have to perform an outward sign to accept Christ as their Savior? Wouldn’t that be more of a work than a baby, who has done nothing, being baptized? Knowing that Jesus commanded all to be Baptized (Matthew 28:19), can they freely refuse to perform the external sign and still be saved? That is the question I would want answered? Logically speaking if works are not a requirement and it is just a sign and doesn’t convey Grace then it doesn’t need to be done. If it does then it must be more than just an outward sign.

I’ll give the Southern Baptist answer to this question, which is similar to the vast majority of evangelical churches. In the Southern Baptist church the “Sacraments” are “outward signs of an inner grace” (which, BTW is how Augustine described the Sacraments). That is, they do not convey grace, they aren’t a vehicle of grace, they are acts of obedience that give testimony that God has (inwardly) worked a miracle in the heart of someone. God has adopted them, filled them with the Holy Spirit, and made them new creations in Christ. In the Evangelical understanding, baptism doesn’t cause those things to happen, baptism is a testimony and physical picture (outward sign) of what God has done in the heart of a true believer.

It is very rare for someone to profess faith in Christ and not seek to be obedient in Baptism. I’ve never seen it happen. And if it did happen the person would be questioned about the validity of their profession of faith. A profession of faith can come from intellectual understanding or from an emotional response to the message of the Gospel. However, for faith to be a “saving faith” it must include obedience. Faith without obedience isn’t true faith. And obedience without faith isn’t true obedience.

Also, Southern Baptist call baptism and the Lord’s Supper ordinances instead of sacraments. This is from the belief that they have been ordained by Christ to be done by His followers. However, they aren’t sacramental, in that they don’t dispense grace. In the Southern Baptist teachings, all grace comes through faith in Christ. Faith is defined as belief and trust in Christ and His work on the cross and surrender to the Lordship of Christ which is reflected and demonstrated in our obedience to Christ and Love for others.

So if someone makes a sincere profession of faith but dies before they are baptized then they are still saved. On the other hand, if someone makes a false profession of faith and is baptized, then dies, they are still lost. In the Southern Baptist world, the key to salvation is a sincere living and active faith in Christ that results in a transformed heart and life.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Original Post:
If salvation requires faith+works, and confession objectively forgives you of all of your sins, then does that mean salvation could be attained without works if someone just went to confession right before they died? If so, how is that not contradictory?

The truth is, salvation is NOT by works. Most people don’t know this, but Protestants are the ones who believe salvation is by works alone - apart from faith and grace. In the Protestant mind “salvation” means you perfectly kept the law throughout your life. So in their mind, salvation is 100% works. The ‘catch’ is that Protestants say that since we are sinners, we can no longer keep the law perfectly, so we must have Jesus do it for us, and so Jesus “imputes” this perfect obedience to us, so that it appears before God the Father that we ourselves actually lived a life of perfect obedience. One simply ‘receives’ this work of Jesus by faith. But still, underneath it all, it is works that are what save. Faith in the Protestant view is a distraction from works actually doing the saving. This is why Protestants always say “If you died today, why should God let you into Heaven?” and they list off all the works you failed to do.

However, in the Catholic (Biblical) view, we are saved by relationship. Entering Heaven is about being invited to a Wedding Banquet. You aren’t invited to a wedding because you’re a ‘good person’, but rather you are invited to a wedding because you are a friend or family of the Groom/Bride. Similarly, we enter into Heaven if we become friends/family of the Trinity while in this life. That’s what salvaiton is: entering into that relationship. We do so at the moment of Baptism, fully and completely. Works have nothing to do with us getting saved. We can turn away from that friendship/adoption into God’s family, but we can again be reconciled (like the Prodigal Son) instantly upon Confession.

The only way works affect our salvation is the same way our actions affect our relationship with our wife. Just because we are married does not mean I have no obligations to love and care for my spouse. In fact, the more good I do, the greater the bond grows, while the less good I do, the weaker the bond becomes. The greater of a friend of God you are upon death, the greater your appreciation of the Wedding in Heaven will be, the less of a friend, the less you will appreciate Heaven. Mortal sin is like leaving the family, but you can be reconciled back instantly upon Confession.

Thus, Catholics really are saved by faith alone through grace alone in the truest sense, unlike Protestants who use those terms deceptively. Protestants mistakenly think that in the Catholic view, good works save a person 1% at a time, working our way up to 100% saved…but this is complete error; Catholicism never taught this. It’s a straw man that the Reformers invented to justify breaking away.

 

[Spyridon]

Because biblical faith is not just an intellectual assent to an ideology.

Biblical faith is acts being done in accordance with that intellectual assent. Biblical faith leads people to do the works of Faith. Read Hebrews 11 for an understanding of Biblical Faith.

 

[MT1926]

Ianman thanks for the response.

However, you left me with a bunch of questions. Please don’t take this as nit picking or brow beating, but your answers don’t really answer my questions I proposed.

In the Southern Baptist church the “Sacraments” are “outward signs of an inner grace” (which, BTW is how Augustine described the Sacraments). That is, they do not convey grace, they aren’t a vehicle of grace, they are acts of obedience that give testimony that God has (inwardly) worked a miracle in the heart of someone.

I’m not sure if your Interpretation of Augustine’s words are what he meant by them. Now the Catholic Church teaches, which I know you don’t agree with, that God is not restricted by the sacraments, however He has given us the Sacraments as external, visible ceremonies as a means in which certain graces are given to men.

So in my mind I see this being set up, by Christ, that we Christians act in obedience to God’s commands and He confers onto us grace. So in regards to Baptism the Church tells me to Baptize my newborn and God will bless that child with grace.

Basically God says go do this and I know He has given my child grace.

Now, if you are correct and we are to get Baptized after we have already received grace and have now become obedient to God. How exactly does one know they received grace and it’s time to perform that outward sign?

You said…

God has adopted them, filled them with the Holy Spirit, and made them new creations in Christ. In the Evangelical understanding, baptism doesn’t cause those things to happen, baptism is a testimony and physical picture (outward sign) of what God has done in the heart of a true believer.

If God hasn’t give us a sign that we must perform (Baptism) to cause those things to happen wouldn’t it be presumptuous to claim they have happened to you?

I don’t mean to be unkind, I just want to point out that the evangelical understanding seems to put the Christian in charge of deciding when they received God’s free gift of grace.

However, for faith to be a “saving faith” it must include obedience. Faith without obedience isn’t true faith. And obedience without faith isn’t true obedience.

Agreed. But how is this not “faith & works”?

So if someone makes a sincere profession of faith but dies before they are baptized then they are still saved.

Agreed. We call this believers baptism

On the other hand, if someone makes a false profession of faith and is baptized, then dies, they are still lost. In the Southern Baptist world, the key to salvation is a sincere living and active faith in Christ that results in a transformed heart and life.

This leaves me wondering how do you know if your profession of faith was sincere or not? Also, what happens to the children who have yet to make a profession of faith?

Thanks again,

God Bless