Salvation and faith+works

[lanman87]

Now, if you are correct and we are to get Baptized after we have already received grace and have now become obedient to God. How exactly does one know they received grace and it’s time to perform that outward sign?

I don’t mean to be unkind, I just want to point out that the evangelical understanding seems to put the Christian in charge of deciding when they received God’s free gift of grace.

I’ll have to answer your questions in several different post. The character limit got me when I tried to answer them all at once. I wish they would increase the limit to 4000 characters.

In Southern Baptist thought, we all have to be converted to Christianity. At some point we each must make a choice if we believe and trust Christ and surrender our life to Him. Now, that choice isn’t a choice we make on our own power. Before anyone can “Choose Christ” they must be drawn to Christ by the working of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and shows us our need for a savior. When we fall under conviction, we surrender to the Holy Spirit, at which point we are “saved”. Which in its fullness means we are placed “in Christ”, our sins are forgiven, we are adopted as a Child of God, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer, and we are made new creations in Christ, and the Holy Spirit starts the process of sanctification in our lives. We can also reject the conviction of the Spirit, at which point we remain lost.

We know it is time to be baptized when we have surrendered to the conviction of Holy Spirit and placed our faith in Christ. This faith includes repentance, calling on the name of the Lord, and giving testimony that you place faith in Christ. It is one of the those things that is so obvious that you can’t help know when it happens. It is like being a ugly dead rock and God reaching down and changing you into a beautiful living being that seeks to Love Him and give Him Glory. While we are still flawed and must fight against the flesh, our heart and spirit is changed to want to please God instead of rebel against Him. When that happens you know it.

Now I must confess that I’m having a crisis of belief as to how all of this happens. I’m starting to lean toward the Reformed understanding that, even though as humans we see this as a choice, from God’s perspective it is Him who gives us the gift of faith and “our choice” is actually the God working in us His sovereign will. In other words, the choice we make to follow Christ is God’s choice for us and not a choice we make ourselves.

 

[lanman87]

Agreed. But how is this not “faith & works”?

There are a bunch of threads on this board about faith and works. Participating in some of those threads has helped me come to a much clearer understanding of what the Reformers meant by “faith alone”. I’ve read some Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan and Charles Spurgeon on what they meant by “faith”. It is clear that when they say “faith alone” they don’t mean faith without works. For them, faith must include works or it isn’t faith. Any claim of faith that doesn’t include evidence of a changed heart and life isn’t a genuine saving faith. A profession of faith can be an intellectual faith where you acknowledge who Christ is and maybe half heartedly participate in religious activity, but there is no real change of heart and life. It can also be an emotional reaction to the Gospel where you hear it and get excited about it, but when the emotional high is gone you go back living just as you did before. None of the reformers or great evangelical preachers would have called either of those saving faith. A saving faith is a faith that changes someone and those changes produce works.

So being saved by faith alone is not a someone merely having a declaration of faith or a temporary emotional faith, it is a deep and abiding and changing faith that produces works. The works themselves aren’t what saves. It is the true faith that saves. However, a true faith produces such a change in someone that if they have that kind of faith, then works must follow.

 

[lanman87]

This leaves me wondering how do you know if your profession of faith was sincere or not?

We are told to examine ourselves to see if we are “of the faith”. If we have a crisis of belief and start to wonder if we really have faith there are things we can look at to see if our faith is real or not.

• Where you changed when you came to faith? If we made a profession of faith and just went on living our life as normal then we need to search our heart to see if our faith in genuine
• Do you feel conviction when you sin? If not, then you need to search you heart and see if you truly believe.
• Does you heart grieve when you see others in sin? If not, then you need to search you heart and see if you truly believe.
• Do you consider the will of God in the decisions you make? If not,…
• Do you have a heart to help the poor and needy? If not…
• Do you have a desire to serve others and serve the church? If not,…
• Do you Love God and Love others? If not,…
• Do you seek to be obedient to God when He calls you to serve in some particular way? If not,…
• Do you seek to learn more about Christ and be equipped to serve God and serve others? If not,…

I could go on but you get the point. If we have a true faith in Christ is it more than “a feeling we have”. There will be evidence both in our attitudes and actions that we are truly Children of God. We hold to the truth that is in 1 John.

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 1 John 2:4-5

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. 1 John 3:23-24

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

So if you want to know if your faith is real or not just look inward and search your heart and look outward at how you live your life. They will either confirm your faith and salvation or will convict you of your need for faith and salvation. .

 

[lanman87]

Also, what happens to the children who have yet to make a profession of faith?

This last one is a tough question for Baptist to answer. My answer is that we rely on the goodness, grace, sovereignty, and justice of God concerning those who do not have the ability to profess faith in Christ. The prevailing opinion in Evangelical circles is that children (or mentally handicapped adults) who die that are incapable of placing faith in Christ and are incapable of rebelling against God are safe in the Love and Grace of God.

 

[porthos11]

If salvation requires faith+works, and confession objectively forgives you of all of your sins, then does that mean salvation could be attained without works if someone just went to confession right before they died? If so, how is that not contradictory?

Salvation is not faith+works. Salvation, in Catholic teaching, is by grace alone.

If you were absolved and got hit by a bus, your salvation is assured, because, again, it’s by grace alone.

Faith leads to justification, which includes the infusion of sanctifying grace.

Works are essential in our growth in charity, and in fact, failing to perform works when morally obligated to do so can be mortally sinful, which leads to the loss of sanctifying grace.

Works by themselves have no salvific merit whatsoever, outside of sanctifying grace. The thing is though, that while merits for works done in the state of sanctifying grace are lost by mortal sin, they are revived upon absolution.

 

[MT1926]

Ianman thanks for taking the time to respond. You’ve covered a lot of ground here. And I know what you mean by the character limit. Drives me up a wall.

I don’t have objections to what you say in your first post it sounds great for someone coming to the faith but what about someone who is already a Christian?

In Southern Baptist thought, we all have to be converted to Christianity. At some point we each must make a choice if we believe and trust Christ and surrender our life to Him.

I would think this would be a choice we would have to make daily? (Luke 9:23) and not a one time experience.

This left me curious, do you not teach children in your church that they are not yet Christians?

I was raised Catholic so I was taught I was a Christian from the day I was Baptized. So I never really had a “conversion experience”. So what would a person do who doesn’t have the “emotional experience”? Like you said…

It is one of the those things that is so obvious that you can’t help know when it happens. It is like being a ugly dead rock and God reaching down and changing you into a beautiful living being that seeks to Love Him and give Him Glory.

Basically, what I am saying is what if you grew up and always answered yes to all of the examination questions from your later post, however, since you grew up in it you have to answer no to the very first question…

Where you changed when you came to faith? If we made a profession of faith and just went on living our life as normal then we need to search our heart to see if our faith in genuine

My normal life is and always has been a yes to the rest of the questions, but I never had an emotional coming to Christ. See the dillema? Believe me I wish I could have that life changing experience. There’s days I wish I was raised protestant and converted to Catholicism. Have you ever listened to Jimmy Akin or Tim Staples or Scott Hahn or David Anders or Steve Ray. Man those guys are on fire. Wish I had what they have.

Although you do go onto say that you are having a crisis of belief about this, so I’m guessing it doesn’t seem as clear cut as it is made out to be?

Can I ask why you are leaning towards the Reformed understanding? I can understand that the gift of faith is actually the Holy Spirit moving within us, basically we can’t have faith without God’s grace initially working in us. However, you go onto say…

In other words, the choice we make to follow Christ is God’s choice for us and not a choice we make ourselves.

Which I understand is the reformed position. However, it also would mean if we don’t follow Christ then that would also be God’s choice as well, which would make God out to be a tyrant. Also, it would mean that we aren’t judged by our works (as the Bible repeats over and over) but we are being judged by what God made us do.

How can God be just in this scenario?

I think I’m at my limit now.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

So being saved by faith alone is not a someone merely having a declaration of faith or a temporary emotional faith, it is a deep and abiding and changing faith that produces works. The works themselves aren’t what saves. It is the true faith that saves. However, a true faith produces such a change in someone that if they have that kind of faith, then works must follow.

I have no objections other than why call it “faith alone”? If they mean faith must include works, they should say it that way. I have talked to many people who take “faith alone” to far and believe since good works can not save you then bad works can not damn you. Very dangerous theology in my book.

This last one is a tough question for Baptist to answer. My answer is that we rely on the goodness, grace, sovereignty, and justice of God concerning those who do not have the ability to profess faith in Christ. The prevailing opinion in Evangelical circles is that children (or mentally handicapped adults) who die that are incapable of placing faith in Christ and are incapable of rebelling against God are safe in the Love and Grace of God.

I do agree with the “goodness, grace, sovereignty, and justice of God”, (that’s what we tend to say about babies who were aborted or die prior to being baptized).

The prevailing opinion in Evangelical circles is that children (or mentally handicapped adults) who die that are incapable of placing faith in Christ and are incapable of rebelling against God are safe in the Love and Grace of God.

No offense but I see this as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If the Evangelical is going to object to God conveying grace when a Catholic Baptizes a Baby, because the child first needs to have faith before they are given grace. Then to proclaim that God would give grace to their child if they died before placing faith in Christ is wishful thinking in my book and not really an answer to the question. Which in all fairness you did admit was a tough one.

Thanks for the dialogue. You are giving me a lot more insight than most that seem to dodge the difficult questions.

To me it’s all about the WHY? I believe you should be able to ask any question with regards to the faith. That’s why I’m still a Catholic, they are the only ones able to answer the WHY?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

My normal life is and always has been a yes to the rest of the questions, but I never had an emotional coming to Christ.

Basically, what I am saying is what if you grew up and always answered yes to all of the examination questions from your later post, however, since you grew up in it you have to answer no to the very first question…

I don’t think it has to be an emotional experience. And for people raised in church and to follow Christ it often isn’t an emotional experience. The question we must ask ourselves is are we answering yes to all the other questions because we truly believe in Christ or are we answering yes those questions because that is what we were taught to do? Only you can answer that question for yourself. And only I can answer that question for myself. And I agree, it is sometimes easier for people who have lived a very sinful life before Christ to truly understand the changing power of Christ. They experience the change in their heart and attitudes and actions in a greater way than those of us who were raised to “trust Jesus” and taught to live a Holy Life. It has been my experience that some of the greatest teachers and preachers of the Gospel where in the depths of sin before they came to Christ. They understand just how precious the grace and forgiveness of God is, maybe in ways those of us raised to “be Christians” don’t understand.

I would think this would be a choice we would have to make daily? (Luke 9:23) and not a one time experience.

I think it is both. Just as being born is a one time event and then living your life is an ongoing event. We don’t just come to faith but we live by faith.

 

[lanman87]

I do agree with the “goodness, grace, sovereignty, and justice of God”, (that’s what we tend to say about babies who were aborted or die prior to being baptized).

No offense but I see this as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If the Evangelical is going to object to God conveying grace when a Catholic Baptizes a Baby, because the child first needs to have faith before they are given grace

If this is the case then we have similar theology, just a different demarcation point. You trust God to do the right thing if a child dies before baptism. We trust God to do the right thing if a child dies before they are capable of having faith.

Edit-this leads to a question by me. At what point does a Catholic child have to have a personal faith in order to be saved? I know the RCC positions is faith+works. So if a Child is capable of having faith but shows no sign of having faith is that a worry to Catholic parents?

 

[lanman87]

This left me curious, do you not teach children in your church that they are not yet Christians?

Actually we don’t teach them that they are Christians. We teach them to believe in Jesus and Love Jesus and that they need Jesus. We teach them when they feel the Holy Spirit calling them to them to respond in faith. However, our children understand that for them to truly be a Christian it is something internal in their heart and not just them “being good” or going to church.

Also keep in mind that we don’t think faith has to be a perfect faith. The Gospel message is pretty simple. We are sinners who need a savior and Jesus is that Savior. You would be surprised how young children can understand and respond to that message. They don’t need to know all the doctrine and theology, they just need to respond when Jesus calls them.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I know the RCC positions is faith+works.

Where did you get this idea? Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[lanman87]

Where did you get this idea? Nothing could be further from the truth.

So Catholics don’t believe in Justification by faith+works?

 

[Senneville]

I like this way of putting it.

 

[MT1926]

I think in order to answer your questions I need to first define a few points so we are on the same page.

I think the “faith + works” can be on the same line as “faith alone”. Basically, no way of knowing what it means without a disclaimer. If I posted above we are saved by faith +works. I didn’t mean to. I think I asked a couple times how is this not faith + works, but didn’t mean to imply this is the official position.

From my understanding, the Catholic view of salvation is not faith plus works, if by works is defined as purely human efforts to win God’s favor.
Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, yet grace must not be resisted, either before justification (by remaining in unbelief) or after (by engaging in serious sin).

Now in order to understand this statement I think we need to define the word grace in order to get to the heart of justification.

The Catholic Church teaches that there are two types of grace: sanctifying and actual.

Actual graces are those graces which prompt and assist us in doing good works. The way it was explained to me the very first free gift of grace given to us by God is actual grace which leads us towards faith. So even faith itself is a gift that God gives to us through the favor of grace.

Sanctifying grace is a divine quality that is infused into our soul and makes our soul partakers of God’s Divine Life (2 Pt 1:4; Rom 5:5; Jn 14:23). We receive this grace through sacraments such as baptism, confession, the Eucharist, etc.

When we speak of being in the state of grace, we mean the state of sanctifying grace. There is no mortal sin in us. This grace comes to us first in baptism and then in the other sacraments.

So from the Catholic point of view I would say it goes like this

• get baptized to gain sufficient grace to go to heaven
  → stay in the state of grace by avoiding mortal sin and love God and neighbor
  → strengthen the grace within you through frequently partaking of the eucharist and doing works of love and devotion
  → If you fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation.

Cont…

 

[MT1926]

…Cont

Now seeing how grace is defined you should hopefully see why I would say… as for the word “saved” I do not believe we are capable of pointing out a specific point in our lives that we can claim to be “officially saved”. Meaning guaranteed salvation when we die. From my understanding of the Catholic position…

The Church teaches in agreement with Scripture that Christians:

"have been saved" through faith and baptism:

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried[a] therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

they’re “being saved” through cooperation with grace:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

and that they “shall be saved” if they persevere in the Faith:

Matthew 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Romans 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

Cont…

 

[MT1926]

…Cont

At what point does a Catholic child have to have a personal faith in order to be saved?

So to answer the first question I don’t think there is a time when anyone can declare that they are saved. I believe salvation is a process. We can persevere to the end or we can fall away. Basically, the way I understand it the baby is Baptized and dies, they go to heaven. If the child grows to an age of reason, what ever that might be, and sins mortally in their heart and God knows they are unrepentant then they are probably going to hell (not my call though it’s up to God). However, they go to confession and get back into God’s grace and immediately get hit by a bus they are on their way to heaven. I don’t think it’s it’s a yes or no answer to the question “are you saved”.

I know the RCC positions is faith+works.

I hope I clarified the position a little better up above, if not let me know.

So if a Child is capable of having faith but shows no sign of having faith is that a worry to Catholic parents?

Only God knows what is in someones heart. Just because we are unable to see someones “faith” doesn’t mean it does not exist. In the end they are in God’s hands. If I force the child to have faith would I be any less worried? Would they be any more saved? Also, seeing how teenagers tend to go with the flow how would a parent ever know if their son went up for the altar call because he loved Jesus or if he did it because everyone else did or did it to get closer to the pretty redhead?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

So to answer the first question I don’t think there is a time when anyone can declare that they are saved. I believe salvation is a process. We can persevere to the end or we can fall away. Basically, the way I understand it the baby is Baptized and dies, they go to heaven. If the child grows to an age of reason, what ever that might be, and sins mortally in their heart and God knows they are unrepentant then they are probably going to hell (not my call though it’s up to God).

Thank you for the clarification. It seems to me that both Catholics and Baptist (evangelicals) believe in an age of reason and that after you reach that age (whatever it might be) then you are personally responsible for your faith.

Only God knows what is in someones heart. Just because we are unable to see someones “faith” doesn’t mean it does not exist. In the end they are in God’s hands. If I force the child to have faith would I be any less worried? Would they be any more saved? Also, seeing how teenagers tend to go with the flow how would a parent ever know if their son went up for the altar call because he loved Jesus or if he did it because everyone else did or did it to get closer to the pretty redhead?

I agree that only God know what is in someones heart and it is not our place to judge their final destination. All we have to go by is what they say and do and who knows what is going on in someones life that is not public knowledge.

Also, we don’t force faith on anyone. It is impossible to do so. Faith is a understanding, trusting and relationship with God. Each of us has to have a faith that is our own, instead of the faith of our parents or even the priest/pastor. And we don’t know the true motives why people proclaim “I have faith”. I’ve seen several instances in my life where an older person comes forward and proclaims they have just placed faith in Christ yet they had made a proclamation of faith as a child or teenager. Everyone assumed that they were a strong Christian, but they new in their heart that something wasn’t right. After searching their heart they realized that they never really trusted in Christ. They usually say that when they were younger they did it because of peer pressure (my friends are making professions of faith) or to make someone happy (mom and dad) or impress someone (like a pretty redhead).

 

[spina1953]

What I seems to be getting here not everyone but some that the idea is that its faith by which one is saved and not works. This is seems to me based on Paul’s Epistles where Paul speaks of faith being the driving force in order to be saved. When Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works what is he really talking about? Paul was from his Epistles,says he is plagued by converted Pharisees who were teaching and preaching that in order to be saved one had to still do all of the Jewish rituals and follow the laws of Moses or they would not be saved.

It does seem to me that Paul is speaking of the Jewish rituals and the laws of Moses and that it is these that are not going to save anyone but the faith one has in Christ Jesus, in other words placing faith in Christ Jesus rather than faith in the Jewish rituals and laws of Moses. Having faith in Christ Jesus then according to Paul means that placing ones faith in Christ, the works one does is done out of love for Christ is a part of that faith in Christ Jesus.

Now in James Epistle he speaks of faith and works. James was being plagues in Jerusalem with converted Pharisees who were teaching and preaching that no one needed to do any works at all just have faith any one is saved. James is saying that just having faith but doing nothing with it is a dead faith and meaningless without works that show the faith one has. If one follows the example of Christ then one does works according to their ability and love. Just as one can’t say they love but never show that love is much the same with faith its the same with faith it means nothing if one does nothing with it. I think what might seems confusing concerning faith and works is that both James and Paul were addressing two very different groups of people each being told something different from converted Pharisees.

 

[lanman87]

It does seem to me that Paul is speaking of the Jewish rituals and the laws of Moses and that it is these that are not going to save anyone but the faith one has in Christ Jesus, in other words placing faith in Christ Jesus rather than faith in the Jewish rituals and laws of Moses. Having faith in Christ Jesus then according to Paul means that placing ones faith in Christ, the works one does is done out of love for Christ is a part of that faith in Christ Jesus.

Now in James Epistle he speaks of faith and works. James was being plagues in Jerusalem with converted Pharisees who were teaching and preaching that no one needed to do any works at all just have faith any one is saved. James is saying that just having faith but doing nothing with it is a dead faith and meaningless without works that show the faith one has. If one follows the example of Christ then one does works according to their ability and love. Just as one can’t say they love but never show that love is much the same with faith its the same with faith it means nothing if one does nothing with it. I think what might seems confusing concerning faith and works is that both James and Paul were addressing two very different groups of people each being told something different from converted Pharisees.

You’ve just given the Protestant position on faith and works.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Ianman87, I don’t know about that since from what I have understood about the Protestant position concerning faith and works is that its faith that saves period, no works just faith. Paul was not talking about not doing good works but that if one puts their faith in the jewish rituals and the law of Moses that was not going to save anyone. Paul was teaching and preaching to Gentiles and the converted Gentiles but the converted Pharisees were undermining Paul’s teachings to them b telling them that they had to adhere to the Jewish rituals like being circumcised and following the law of Moses, This quite different from doing good works

James on the other hand when he spoke of works the Pharisees were saying that no works saved only faith. James was talking about doing good works not doing jewish rituals and the law of Moses that if one has faith and does works then its not a dead faith otherwise not doing anything and just say I have faith and I need to do nothing else with it is a dead faith.