Salvation and faith+works

[De_Maria]

My big question for both Arminians and Catholics (which have similar positions) is “is faith a work”?

Yes.

It seems to me that if it is an action we must take (agree with God, cooperate with God, or however you want to put it) then it is a something we do and therefore salvation is, at least partially, of ourselves.

Correct. You preach monergism for salvation. We believe in synergism for salvation. Monergism for creation.

However, the bible says that “By grace you are saved through faith, it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”. The reformed position answers the question of how faith is not of yourself.

We look at that differently. That says that salvation is not of ourselves.

Let’s correlate a couple of Scriptures. First, it says, by grace you are saved. What other place says we are saved by something?

Titus 3:5….but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration

To us, the washing of regeneration is Baptism. And we can have other Scriptures which prove that:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; …
1 Peter 3:21 …baptism doth also now save us…

So, in Eph 2:8, he says that grace saves us because it is in Baptism that we receive saving grace.

But he also says, By grace you are saved, through faith. Why, “through faith”? Because it is in Baptism that we make a proclamation of faith:

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Then he says, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We believe that is a reference to the gift of salvation.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Let’s correlate this again to Titus 3:5

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

Notice that this specifically says, works we have done. So, this does not include those who have not done works. And that means that Eph 2:8 is also saying that those who will be saved have done good works. It does not say, as you seem to imply, that works are not necessary.

In essence, then, Eph 2:8 is another Sacramental Teaching. By grace, we are saved, through faith, in Baptism. Not of our works, lest we should boast. Because salvation is the gift of God to those who are faithful and obey His will.

 

[lanman87]

Let me know what you think. Also, wouldn’t mind hearing your reformed position.

Honestly, a few months ago I never even considered reformed doctrine. Ironically, it wasn’t until I came to CA and interacted with you good folks that I started investigating it. I figured if I was investigating Catholicism I needed to be fair and investigate what Luther and Calvin and Jonathan Edwards and others had to say.

I still on the fence and have many questions about Reformed Doctrine. I don’t like the fact that under Reformed Doctrine Jesus died only for the elect and not for everyone. I don’t like that fact that only those God chose to predestine are the only ones who will ultimately have a saving faith. I want everyone to have the possibility of salvation.

However, I have to admit that the Bible is clear that God chooses us. It is also clear that God has chose some and not chosen others. He chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He chose the people of Israel and not the Greeks or Egyptians or Philistines. You could say he created the non-Jewish peoples knowing that they would die in their sins and go to hell.

Also, we are all sinners who deserve Hell. Can we really say God is cruel for choosing to pardon some while giving justice to others? Is a President cruel for pardoning some criminals and not pardoning others? Just as we rely on a President to do the right thing in the right situations, even though he is just a man. How much more should we rely on God to pardon the right people in the right situations?

Plus it is clear from the Bible that God, at least in some instances, worked to change peoples will. He hardened peoples hearts to accomplish His purposes. Some would even argue that it was God’s will that Judas betray Jesus. It was God’s will that the Jews turned Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified. Those are things we would consider horrible, yet they are part of God’s plan and happened because it is what he decreed would happen.

But the question that got is all started was “Is faith a work”? I can understand the Arminian position where faith is kind of a work. It is God who makes the first move to give us faith but we must accept it. But is even accepting the gift of faith “of ourselves”. Baptism is clearly of “ourselves”. Being religious can be “of ourselves”.

But when you think of faith as a gift that God gives to those He chooses then it becomes much more clear. Baptism and religion and works of righteousness suddenly aren’t “of ourselves” they are “of faith”. We do them because God chose us and works in us, not because we chose God.

The parable of the sower and the seed became much clearer to me after I considered the Reformed view.

Anyway, as I said, I still have a lot of questions and a lot of things to come to grip with in the reformed position. I don’t want to “be reformed” I was very happy in my Southern Baptist understanding of faith as Loving Jesus and Loving others. Plus, I’ve found Presbyterians to be a little boring

 

[James817]

I see your point. However, the election of Israel was done for the purpose of bringing blessing to the world. Just because Israel was the Chosen People, doesn’t mean salvation was connected to being Israelites.

As to your point about God doing what He wants, I agree. But it’s clear from Scripture that God wants EVERYONE to be saved. His Son came on this earth as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the WORLD.

Since God’s plan is for the salvation of all, it is not God’s fault, but people’s fault when they go to hell. It is not God who hardens hearts but people who harden their hearts. I am reminded of an excerpt from John Chrysostom on Romans 9 concerning Pharaoh:

What he means is somewhat as follows. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, that is, a man who by his own hard-heartedness had kindled the wrath of God. For after enjoying much long-suffering, he became no better, but remained unimproved. Wherefore he calls him not only a vessel of wrath, but also one fitted for destruction. That is, fully fitted indeed, but by his own proper self. For neither had God left out anything of the things likely to recover him, nor did he leave out anything of those that would ruin him, and put him beyond any forgiveness. Yet still, though God knew this, He endured him with much long-suffering, being willing to bring him to repentance. For had He not willed this, then He would not have been thus long-suffering. But as he would not use the long-suffering in order to repentance, but fully fitted himself for wrath, He used him for the correction of others, through the punishment inflicted upon him making them better, and in this way setting forth His power.

I’m also reminded of another excerpt by the Saint:
What was the cause then why one was loved and the other hated? Why was it that one served, the other was served? It was because one was wicked, and the other good. And yet the children being not yet born, one was honored and the other condemned. For when they were not as yet born, God said, the elder shall serve the younger. With what intent then did God say this? Because He does not wait, as man does, to see from the issue of their acts the good and him who is not so, but even before these He knows which is the wicked and which not such.

 

[Michael16]

I always thought that faith and works are tandem; both are required for salvation. For, as Saint James said; " Faith without works is dead ". The problem I had with Protestant theology was this: That I have no control over my sinful nature and I cannot help but sin. That’s definitely nonsense; as I can freely choose to do good or do evil and doing good is doing works. So, good works and working to overcome my sinful inclinations are necessary to my salvation; As Saint Paul said: " Work out your salvation with fear and trembling ".

 

[James817]

Yet we read in Isaiah that our righteousness is as filthy rags, and Jesus tells us in John’s Gospel, “Without Me you can do nothing.” We cannot be good or do good without grace.

 

[Michael16]

I agree with you. Grace is totally needed. My only problem was that classical Protestantism says we’re hopelessly and horribly sinful creatures by nature. Catholicism teaches me that we’re good by nature as we are creations of God.

 

[MT1926]

I don’t like that fact that only those God chose to predestine are the only ones who will ultimately have a saving faith.

I agree. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this theology. It sure seems like the only way to make it work is to ignore Jesus prescriptive texts in the Bible or state (as White does) that they are merely descriptive of what the elect will do. To many holes in that theory, makes no sense.

However, I have to admit that the Bible is clear that God chooses us. It is also clear that God has chose some and not chosen others. H

This is where we differ. Just because God chooses someone doesn’t mean he sent the others to Hell. That is one thing I like about the Catholic position, the Church never makes a determination of who is in Hell. Even take for instance Judas. Jesus says…“Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24). Sure this implies that Judas’s final destination was hell, however the Bible never mentions if he repented of his sins before his death, and so the Church does not say with certainty that he is in hell. On the other hand I have met quit a few reformed who tell me I am going to hell for being Catholic. Must be nice to know what God knows? Also, as soon as one reformed person could prove to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that they are among the elect, I will believe God only saves the elect.

Also, we are all sinners who deserve Hell. Can we really say God is cruel for choosing to pardon some while giving justice to others?

Is a 2 day old baby, who dies, a sinner who deserves Hell? If our picture of God is someone who pardons the most serial murderer just because 20 years ago he confessed Jesus and his past present and future sins where forgiven, while at they same time sending a Baptized 4 year old, who has never done anything but love her parents, to Hell. Then yes we can say this is a cruel God. This is the full extent of the reformed position, if God does not foreknow and take into consideration what is in our hearts then He is a tyrant. It’s this exact position that so many atheists seem to bring up. If it is all God then that means all evil in the world is because of God as well.

Baptism is clearly of “ourselves”.

I don’t understand this statement. In the Catholic Church we Baptize babies, so how can that be clearly of ourselves (the baby)?

We do them because God chose us and works in us, not because we chose God.

I don’t really like the phrase “we chose God” either. I prefer to say we cooperate with God’s grace.

Your on a good path. Never stop asking questions. It’s all about the WHY? The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years, I don’t think there is a question out there that they haven’t responded to. If you can’t get a reason for your why then you will know you are barking up the wrong tree.

God Bless

 

[spina1953]

I guess it really depends on what one’s idea of works plus faith. When Paul speaks of works he is speaking of the Jewish rituals Jews followed under the laws of Moses. Paul is saying that these rituals are not going to save anyone. its faith in Christ Jesus that saves not works under the law of Moses. This has nothing to do with doing good deeds or good works which are much different from the Jewish rituals under the laws of Moses. According to Paul it seems to me he is saying one is now under the law of Christ jesus so to speak and so good deeds and good works are done because of the faith one has in Christ Jesus.

This i think would have been understood by those listening and hearing Paul speak and preach and teach. Paul’s’ Epistles would have been understood that way. Since the time of the Reformation it seems all good works and good deeds have been tossed in with the Jewish rituals so they become one and the same. There is a great difference I think between Paul’s speaking against the Jewish ritual’s and the law of Moses and doing good works and good deeds by having faith in Christ Jesus. So I think Paul was not against doing good works and good deeds as a mark of one’s faith, only against observing the Jewish rituals under the law of Moses.