Salvation and Works

[Coder]

People often talk about faith and that we are not saved by works. However, this discussion may miss the point. Salvation is a real action on us by God and it has real effects. After all, what exactly is salvation and what are we saved from? Do we stop sinning and start doing good as some sort of work? No. Rather we are saved from sin by Jesus. Sin hurts us by damaging our relationship with the Father. So we don’t stop sinning as some sort of work, rather if we stop sinning it is a gift from God as part of our salvation. Someone cannot say they are saved if they are not saved from serious sin. This has nothing to do with works. When we avoid sin and do good (works) it is not our work but Jesus working through us.

St. Paul refers to foolish debates and I think debates about faith vs. works are in that category. It misses the point that we are saved by the work of Jesus and this salvation itself is the real result in our lives.

So are we saved by works? Yes, but these works are the acts of God. Christians are saved by the work of Jesus on the cross and His works that He now does in and through them.

Peace

 

[JRKH]

People often talk about faith and that we are not saved by works. However, this discussion may miss the point. Salvation is a real action on us by God and it has real effects. After all, what exactly is salvation and what are we saved from? Do we stop sinning and start doing good as some sort of work? No. Rather we are saved from sin by Jesus. Sin hurts us by damaging our relationship with the Father. So we don’t stop sinning as some sort of work, rather if we stop sinning it is a gift from God as part of our salvation. Someone cannot say they are saved if they are not saved from serious sin. This has nothing to do with works. When we avoid sin and do good (works) it is not our work but Jesus working through us.

St. Paul refers to foolish debates and I think debates about faith vs. works are in that category. It misses the point that we are saved by the work of Jesus and this salvation itself is the real result in our lives.

So are we saved by works? Yes, but these works are the acts of God. Christians are saved by the work of Jesus on the cross and His works that He now does in and through them.

Peace

I bolded the section above because I believe it gets right to the heart of the matter. It is indeed a foolish debate between Protestants and Catholics because the Catholic Church does not and never has taught a so called “Works Salvation”.

Peace
James

 

[NHInsider]

St. Paul refers to foolish debates and I think debates about faith vs. works are in that category. It misses the point that we are saved by the work of Jesus and this salvation itself is the real result in our lives.

So are we saved by works? Yes, but these works are the acts of God. Christians are saved by the work of Jesus on the cross and His works that He now does in and through them.

Peace

St. Paul wrote that we are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith, FOR good works. (Sola fide folks like to focus on Eph 2:9, but verses 8 and 10 are still there!) These are not separate items, they are aspects of the process of salvation, or facets on a diamond.

I like your observation that the work of salvation is Jesus’ work!

 

[zach_dunn]

St. Paul wrote that we are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith, FOR good works. (Sola fide folks like to focus on Eph 2:9, but verses 8 and 10 are still there!) These are not separate items, they are aspects of the process of salvation, or facets on a diamond.

I like your observation that the work of salvation is Jesus’ work!

If this were Catholic teaching, wouldn’t it amount to saved by faith? You say we get saving grace through faith. So faith is the way we are saved because grace comes to us from having faith? What does that make works? Just “proof” of faith, if that’s the case works don’t really matter because you aren’t actually saved by works, it’s by faith. To me this sounds a lot like what Protestants say, “you are saved by faith but if you don’t have works you don’t really have faith”. So what is it? what exactly is the teaching on salvation by the Church because this topic has confused me so much since I started learning about my faith…

Pax,
Zach

 

[Coder]

…what exactly is the teaching on salvation by the Church because this topic has confused me so much since I started learning about my faith…

Pax,
Zach

Our bodies were created by God and are kept in existence at every instant by Him. The earth was created by God. We are saved by His work that He continues today by the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 15:5 “… without me you can do nothing.”
usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john15.htm#v1

Does Jesus say that we can do a “little” without Him and He does the rest? No, He says “nothing”. So this seems to render the “works” debate moot. By faith we trust in Jesus and cooperate with Him.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

If this were Catholic teaching, wouldn’t it amount to saved by faith?

We are saved by faith! Just not by faith alone.

 

[wisdomseeker]

If this were Catholic teaching, wouldn’t it amount to saved by faith? You say we get saving grace through faith. So faith is the way we are saved because grace comes to us from having faith? What does that make works? Just “proof” of faith, if that’s the case works don’t really matter because you aren’t actually saved by works, it’s by faith. To me this sounds a lot like what Protestants say, “you are saved by faith but if you don’t have works you don’t really have faith”. So what is it? what exactly is the teaching on salvation by the Church because this topic has confused me so much since I started learning about my faith…

Pax,
Zach

if i am correct it started with ML saying that the CC teaches that salvation comes from our works i believe. very caniver.

i think the Sacred Scriptures talks about having Faith, believing in Jesus. the Bible also explain how we are to believe in Christ. Jesus says: If you love me, you obey my comandments. this is very clear. some people decided that they would pick the verse that talks about believing in Jesus and left out the passages that explains how we should have faith. you know, how faith works.

:byzsoc:

 

[Peter_Dawson]

As I said elsewhere, faith and works should not be sharply distinguished. Faith is a “good work” because it is an act of the will energized by God’s grace accepted by the individual engaging in the work of faith.

Works, on the other hand, are “good” only if they are done with good intentions, which is only possible if the decision to do the works are energized by God’s grace accepted by the individual engaging in the works, and the grace of God is always going to have a “faith” component, however small – it will never be dead to faith.

 

[Coder]

…the works are energized by God’s grace…

The sacrifice of Jesus that saves us was a work. The works of Jesus today are to be done in union with Him by Christians in whom the Holy Spirit lives. There would be no point to even live in this world if we did not have work to do such as teaching others about Jesus!

 

[Philthy]

]If this were Catholic teaching, wouldn’t it amount to saved by faith?

It is Catholic to say we are saved by faith. It is not Catholic to say that salvation is by faith alone…

You say we get saving grace through faith. So faith is the way we are saved because grace comes to us from having faith?

Yes, but that doesnt mean we will inherit the Kingdom of God (Heaven). This is where most stumble: they equate being “saved” with “going to Heaven” - they are related, but different.

What does that make works? Just “proof” of faith, if that’s the case works don’t really matter because you aren’t actually saved by works, it’s by faith. To me this sounds a lot like what Protestants say, “you are saved by faith but if you don’t have works you don’t really have faith”.

And they are correct in saying that if you dont have works that you dont have faith. The problem is that they attempt to say that salvation is by faith alone and that if your faith is alone - it wont save you. Those two ideas are self-contradictory. Faith alone means faith…alone, by itself, independent of anything else. If faith alone saved us as they claim, they wouldnt need to qualify it with whether or not you do any works as “evidence” of the faith. All they are saying is that if you dont have works you arent saved because you dont have faith. Its useless to claim that salvation is by faith alone if one is unable to recognize whether they have faith except through the observation of their works. What good is it to claim that salvation is by faith alone when you wouldnt know you had faith unless you saw the fruit of it in your life through good works? Useless.

So what is it? what exactly is the teaching on salvation by the Church because this topic has confused me so much since I started learning about my faith…Pax, Zach

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith encompasses more than mere belief. We must freely choose God over self in the day to day living of our lives. “If anyone wishes to come after me he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me.” Luke 9:23 Our faith must be formed by love of God and neighbor. Read the Book of James, Chapter 2 for the necessity of living out your faith with respect to salvation. Being baptized or having your child baptized is an act of faith. Repentance and avoiding sin is an act of faith. Choosing to act charitably toward others is an act of faith. Forgiving others is an act of faith. They are all requirements of inheriting the Kingdom of God (Heaven). (cf Acts 2; 1Cor 6; Matt 25; Matt 6 and many others)

Blessings

 

[Pax]

Nicely summarized Phil…God bless you brother.

 

[zach_dunn]

Philthy,

Thank you so much, your post has helped me a lot. God bless you.

I have a question, what exactly does it mean to deny oneself and to take up one’s cross? This may be a silly question but I’ve never really known…

Also, I don’t mean to get Protestant on you guys (no offense meant), but how do you (Philthy) answer Ephesians 2:9? “not of works lest any man should boast”? Thank you so much!

Pax,
Zach

 

[JRKH]

Philthy,

Thank you so much, your post has helped me a lot. God bless you.

I have a question, what exactly does it mean to deny oneself and to take up one’s cross? This may be a silly question but I’ve never really known…

I may not be able to clearly explain this but I will try.
Even with Faith, and Grace, and Hope, and Love, even with all of the virtues we remain tempted. The more we are able to grow in Faith the more we see that needs to be done in our lives. In other words the closer we get to God the more clearly we can see how far we have yet to go. All of this requires our attention, our efforts and our willingness to accept the sufferings and trials that God choses to send to us in order that we might be purified.
For a really good study on this I recommend “The Fullfillment of All Desire” . It is an Excellent Book that is based on the “Wisdom of the Saints”.

Also, I don’t mean to get Protestant on you guys (no offense meant), but how do you (Philthy) answer Ephesians 2:9? “not of works lest any man should boast”? Thank you so much!

Pax,
Zach

Lets expand on this quote a bit and see what we get.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Note that Paul is clear that we are saved by faith, but that in that faith we are "created in Christ for Good Works… So once again we see that Faith and Works are intertwined.
When Paul speaks of Boasting he is refering to the kind of boastful attitudes that Jesus admonished the Pharasees for. This feeling of “Pride” at being so “Holy” by keeping the letter of the Law but not the Spirit of the Law. If we Boast at all it needs to be of Christ acting in us and not of our actions.

Hiope this helps

Peace
James

 

[Philthy]

Nicely summarized Phil…God bless you brother.

Thanks Pax - much of what I know I learned from you. You are a blessing. I keep you and your family and your friends in my prayers…

 

[Philthy]

zach dunn;:

Philthy, Thank you so much, your post has helped me a lot. God bless you.

Thank you for your kind words - I truly appreciate it.

I have a question, what exactly does it mean to deny oneself and to take up one’s cross? This may be a silly question but I’ve never really known…

Silly question? Hardly! It is an incredibly important question, for it reveals to us how to be a “follower” of Christ. If we wish to follow Christ - and we do - we must have a firm understanding of what it means to “deny oneself”. It is a very good sign, spiritually, that such a question has emerged from your heart - it shows you are seeking Him. Do not be slack in pursuing this answer and wrestling with it as it applies to your own life.
Basically the call to die to oneself is the call to do something that our natural instincts do not embrace, that the world teaches us is foolish and that will involve suffering. Our natural tendency is to seek the fulfillment of our own selfish desires. We build our lives around providing for ourselves first and thinking of others second. Christ has a different plan for us - the plan for us to share in the love of God for all eternity; the love that He and the Father have shared for all eternity. Mankind was created to share in this love, with God as the fulfillment of every desire of our hearts. But the problem is that as a result of the Fall, our desires are not ordered toward pursuing God. They are ordered toward pursuing self. This separates us from God, who is Love. Christ came to open the path to God (eternal life) for all of mankind. In an important sense Christ’s work of redemption is finished - He has offered himself as a sacrificial atonement for all of humanity for all time. This is something only He could do for us - without Him we would be eternally separated from God. Redemption itself, however, is far from finished. We actually play a role in redemption as well. We must, at a minimum, repent and believe in Christ. That is a crucial step, but it is really just the beginning of an ongoing process known as our “walk with Christ”. Christ’s call to die to oneself is a call to eliminate our disordered, selfish tendencies and order them toward God. In short, we are to do exactly as he commanded: love God and neighbor. This necessarily involves sacrifice - the sacrifice of our desire to please our self first. We cant accomplish this on our own, it is only by grace that we are moved to truly love.

Also, I don’t mean to get Protestant on you guys (no offense meant), but how do you (Philthy) answer Ephesians 2:9? “not of works lest any man should boast”? Thank you so much! Pax,
Zach

I will touch on this only briefly as I dont have the time to go into much detail right now.
If you will recall I told you there is an important distinction between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God” (ie Heaven). This verse is speaking to how you enter into salvation. Other issues which pertain to going to Heaven are not addressed here. Paul addresses such issues in explicit detail in 1 Cor Ch 6. Why dont you read it and see how he tells the “saved” believers in Corinth that certain behaviors preclude one from “inheriting the kingdom of God” and we can discuss it further. Also read James Ch2 and you will see that Ephesians 2:9 is not the whole story of salvation, but merely a part of it.

 

[Coder]

Its useless to claim that salvation is by faith alone…

Also, let us not forget the point of this thread. What is salvation? We are saved from our sinful works and our failure to do good works. This is integral to salvation. Part of salvation is the works that God does in and through us. If we say we are “saved” by faith then by definition we are saying we will be “changed” by faith. The definition of “saved” includes works!

 

[Pax]

Philthy,
…

I have a question, what exactly does it mean to deny oneself and to take up one’s cross?
…
Pax,
Zach

I think one could summarize Phil’s answer by saying that taking up the cross is to live in the Spirit while struggling against the flesh.

God bless.

 

[caredondo]

Concerning the faith vs. works discussion.

Clearly authentic faith is a profound, whole-hearted acceptance of God’s saving gift to us, and involves the desire and willingness to cooperate with this grace in our choices and actions.

Church teaching makes it clear that resisting temptation and making virtuous choices is a combination of God’s grace and our own cooperation with that grace. To think that we can avoid sin and live virtuous lives on our own efforts alone has been identified as a heresy (Pelagianism).

To quote briefly the CCC: “Human merit before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Human merit, moreover, is itself due to God, for good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.” (2008) “The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. ‘Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due…Our merits are God’s gifts.’” (2009)

My concern is not with the “grace” side of the equation, but with the cooperation side. We believe that God is always present with his gracious help to avoid sin and choose what is right and good. It is not God’s will that we sin, but just the opposite. Sin, by its very definition, is a rejection of goodness and God’s gracious will for us, whether in serious or mild degrees. So when we sin, it is our cooperation that is missing. We are freely rejecting God’s help. That rejection is my part. It is my responsibility, not God’s. God has done His part in extending his grace to me. I have not done my part in cooperating with that grace. In other words, God has offered me His helping hand, but I have not grasped His hand in return.

But that is where my first question lies: why is it that on one occasion I have the strength, ability and will to cooperate with God, and on another occasion, contrary to my deepest wishes, desires and promises, I do not have the strength, ability and will to cooperate, but instead give in one more time to temptation? Is my cooperation a matter of my own free choice, or not? If my cooperation with God’s grace is completely a free choice on my part, then it seems that we are back to the heresy of Pelagianism: the key link in avoiding sin and being virtuous is really and solely up to me. But if my cooperation is not completely my responsibility and choice, and God’s grace is the saving factor, then where does responsibility for succumbing to temptation really rest? Is my sinful action really my fault? Does God’s saving action ultimately conquer all sin? And if the answer is that both virtue and sin are a mysterious combination of both grace and human response, then are we really answering the question?

I believe this is a key question that is at the heart of living out our Christian faith. God’s grace is essential. We cannot save ourselves by our own effort. But if this grace is needed even to cooperate with God, then where does the responsibility for sin really lie?

 

[Analyticalpoet]

Let us not forget that Salvation is through Grace alone! However, this Grace is manifested through both Faith and Good Works. Grace is a participation in the Divine life, and is unmerritedaly given to all. Whomever chooses to exercise this does so through his own free will. The principle of this action however is not on our part but that of God who calls us to him. We are saved from our fallen nature, and given the remedy against our concopuscience --The Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Faith in itself is an action for it is a response to the call of the Lord, so Good works do save in so far as that all Good comes from God through our actions. As such we are light and salt to the world pointing others to Christ our Lord.

Denying onself is also in itself an act, one spurred by faith to be more Christlike. All this requires work. Remember we are endowed with free will, but with ever ascent that we give to the Lord, the principle act is from Him who calls on us. our action is secondary as it is a response. Faith is not only evidence of faith, but also a means in which it can lead others to faith.

 

[caredondo]

I think of the example of the rich young man of Gospels. Jesus invited him into discipleship and the young man walked away. Jesus wanted a relationship that the young man would freely choose. Jesus did not and could not force him to accept.

For any one of us, from the greatest saint to the worst sinner, at any moment of our lives, God is graciously inviting us into closer relationship with him. God is calling us to continuing conversion, perhaps turning away from great evil and toward real goodness, or perhaps turning more completely to the ultimate good which is God himself.

God’s invitation is always there, waiting for my response. But my response is my response, my acceptance in faith of God’s gracious, redemptive action. If my acceptance is God’s doing, then what is my refusal? If I am responsible for the refusal, am I not equally responsible for the acceptance? If it is only God’s grace that makes possible even the tiniest movement of acceptance on my part, then how do I account for those moments of sinful choice that are a real part of my experience? Was God’s grace not strong enough to overcome my selfish tendencies? This is the dilemma I see in the “faith vs. works” paradox.