Salvation Assurance: Myth or Reality for average Joe / Jane Catholic @ CAF

[Robert_in_SD]

Because neither I, nor anyone I know would ever tell someone, “Hey, all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Lord and savior amd you’re saved!”

Please see my earlier response.
Pastor Jim:

I see. So then, I can be baptized and still knowingly reject the authority of the Catholic church and it’s doctrines and be saved?

Please see my earlier response.
Pastor Jim:

Then they’re wrong.

And why do you believe your understanding of the Scripture is correct, while theirs is wrong? And how would you convince a bystander that you have the authority to make the call as to which of you is correct?
Pastor Jim:

No, it isn’t. All an altar call is is an opportunity toward the end of a service for people to go up and ask for prayer or counseling. 99 times out of 100, it has nothing to do with salvation.

OK. I’m speaking of that 1 in 100 time, where a pastor invites people to come up and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Is that a moment of salvation, after which nothing they could possibly do would take their personal eternal salvation away? If that’s what you believe, then I respectfully disagree and contend that your interpretation of scripture is incorrect.
Pastor Jim:

Repent and turn from your sin and place your faith in Christ and His atoning work on your behalf at the cross.

…and… what? Is this person’s individual salvation absolutely assured from that moment forward? How does this differ in any real way from the “altar call” described above? Is the explicit statement of the need for repentence the only distinction? And what if this person later descends back into a life of sin and vice? Would you say he was never really saved to begin with? Or would you say his faith was not saving faith? How would you explain the apparent contradiction of a life lived in sin leading to salvation?

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

.

Hello PastorJim,

I hope we’re not starting off on the wrong foot here, but to be perfectly honest it seems you might have a “chip” on your shoulder or at the very least seem to be displaying some type of attitude.

If I’ve offended you in anyway, I apologize.

Now, you seem to have us at a disadvantage in the fact you know we are Catholics. You, on the other hand, appear to be speaking like a Protestant. What denomination are you affliated with, if you don’t mind me asking? I only ask as it might make our understanding of your position a little easier. You realize how many denominations there are and most have slightly different doctrines.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[terryobrien80]

Because neither I, nor anyone I know would ever tell someone, “Hey, all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Lord and savior amd you’re saved!”…

Read this quote:

1. How to Become Saved and Receive the Gift of Eternal Salvation

The Bible makes it very clear as to how to receive the Gift of Eternal Salvation from God the Father:

• Admit that we are sinners, be willing to confess our sins before God, and be willing to repent and turn from those sins.

• Be willing to accept the fact that Jesus Christ came to our earth in the flesh to die on the cross for all of our sins, that He rose from the dead on the third day, and then be willing to formally accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior.

This acceptance of Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior must be confessed out loud before God the Father. It does not have to be done in a church. This can happen to anyone at anytime at any place. It can be done in the privacy of one’s own bedroom. Here are three specific verses showing all of the above points.

source: bible-knowledge.com/what-is-salvation.html
“The Basics of Salvation Through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”

I did a Google search of “personal lord and savior” and this was just one of a plethora of sites stating that all you had to do was “accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior” and you’re saved. Its the Fundie battle cry… …and a load of hogwash

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Read this quote:

source: bible-knowledge.com/what-is-salvation.html
“The Basics of Salvation Through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”

I did a Google search of "personal lord and savior" and this was just one of a plethora of sites stating that all you had to do was “accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior” and you’re saved. It the [childish name calling omitted] battle cry… …and a load of hogwash

If it’s the “Fundamentalist battle cry”, then why did you have to go to a Pentcostal website to find a quote?

Second, did you even read the quote you posted? The very first two things it tells you is that you’re saved by repenting and placing your faith in Christ, just as I told you.

 

[terryobrien80]

A heretic is a heretic: I don’t divide them up

 

[Pastor_Jim]

A heretic is a heretic

I’m sorry you feel that BIblical teaching is heretical, but showing a source from a pentecostal site in order to make the claim that it’s a fundamentalist teaching (when even the quote from the pentecostal site doesn’t say what you claim it does) is just disingenuous on your part.

By the way, isn’t there something in the rules about not calling other posters derogatory names?

Conduct Rules:

Article 2: Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

And why do you believe your understanding of the Scripture is correct, while theirs is wrong?

Because I can back mine up with scripture and they can’t.

And how would you convince a bystander that you have the authority to make the call as to which of you is correct?

I would never try to convince them that it has anything to do with my authority. The only authority I’m concerned about comes from the word of God.

If that’s what you believe, then I respectfully disagree and contend that your interpretation of scripture is incorrect.

OK. Back it up. Show the passage I cited, and show us the exegesis which led you to the conclusion that I’m wrong.

Is this person’s individual salvation absolutely assured from that moment forward?

You’re either born again or you’re not. If you’re born again, then you’re born again. It is not a revolving door that you walk in and back out of.

How does this differ in any real way from the “altar call” described above?

It differs a great deal because the words you chose to put in my mouth are completely different than what I would, in reality tell them.

And what if this person later descends back into a life of sin and vice?

Then they didn’t repent.

Would you say he was never really saved to begin with?

You can’t be saved without repentance.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Pastor Jim… have you ever looked into the writings of the Early Christians (say 100 AD-400AD) to see how they understood salvation? Some taught by the Apostles or real close to it.

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Pastor Jim… have you ever looked into the writings of the Early Christians (say 100 AD-400AD) to see how they understood salvation? Some taught by the Apostles or real close to it.

SD

Yes.

 

[tealblue]

Pastor Jim

I think your misunderstanding of being born again is getting in the way of your understanding of this aspect of salvation.

John 3:5 is talking of water baptism. Born of the WATER and spirit.

John 3 23,24 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23
John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, 11 because there was an abundance of WATER there, and people came to be baptized,
24

Its no coincidence that jesus went down to Judea to baptize with water right after his expalnation of being born again.

No early church father ever taught that being born again was anything but water baptism. Evangelical idea of being born again is a rather new.

If you take away your idea of being born again I think the numerous scripture passages that talk about losing faith or being cut off come to true light.

I hope this isn’t offensive but this is the historical understanding of being born again.

 

[Mijoy2]

Yes.

And…

Is your interpretation one of absolute assurance?

I often wondered about the logic of OSAS. What if the individual who made the alter call with all sincerity at one point in his/her life, then at some future date decided he/she no longer believed and determined it was all bunk and it was time to grab for all the worldly possesions and “fun” one could attain?

What becomes of this individual? Is it not a worthy hypothetical?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Pastor Jim

I think your misunderstanding of being born again is getting in the way of your understanding of this aspect of salvation.

Thank you, but I do understand what it means to be born again.

John 3:5 is talking of water baptism. Born of the WATER and spirit.

Actually, this has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism is an ordinance of the church and the church wasn’t even established yet.

No early church father ever taught that being born again was anything but water baptism.

Then they were wrong because the Bible teaches that baptism is done in response to being born again, not as a means of being born again.

If you take away your idea of being born again I think the numerous scripture passages that talk about losing faith or being cut off come to true light.

There is no scripture that says one can lose their salvation.

I hope this isn’t offensive but this is the historical understanding of being born again.

It may be your historical understanding, but it isn’t Biblical.
MIjoy:

I often wondered about the logic of OSAS. What if the individual who made the alter call with all sincerity at one point in his/her life, then at some future date decided he/she no longer believed and determined it was all bunk and it was time to grab for all the worldly possesions and “fun” one could attain?

What becomes of this individual? Is it not a worthy hypothetical?

OK. Again…“making an altar call” and even being sincere
do not make one born again.

If you’re born again, then evidence will follow. What you’re describing is evidence that they are* not* born again.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Yes.

And… what did they say???

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

And… what did they say???

SD

What they said is irrelevant. We get our doctrine from God’s word, not from the opinions of men.

 

[tealblue]

Why did jesus spend all this time speaking of being born again then immediately go down and start baptizing everyone with water.
Are you sure your willing to discard every church father’s ageement for a novel few hundred year old teaching. Catholics aren’t the only ones who hold to this. Lutherns for one.

I believed just as you did 3 years ago. The thing is we all read scripture with presupositions to are own doctrines. Including Caholics. Thats why there is 40,000 church out there. Here is the difference. Catholics are 2000 years old

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Why did jesus spend all this time speaking of being born again then immediately go down and start baptizing everyone with water.

Which verse are you referring to?

Are you sure your willing to discard every church father’s ageement for a novel few hundred year old teaching.

We get our doctrine from God’s word, not from the opinions of your “early church fathers”.

Catholics aren’t the only ones who hold to this. Lutherns for one.

Actually, they don’t.

 

[rinnie]

I dont believe it is said in the bible OSAS. Jesus tells us to get into heaven we must follow the ten commandments. He also tells us we must repent and confess our sins. In the end we will have judgement day. IMO the day we are saved is when we are baptised in Christ, That is the day we receive Grace, but as the bible says we can fall from grace. So yes we are saved the day we are baptised in Christ but we must then keep that grace by obeying his commandments. No one will know until the day they meet Christ face to face if they are saved or not. It is for him to decide not us.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

No one will know until the day they meet Christ face to face if they are saved or not.

I disagree. The Bible is very clear that we can know whether or not we’re saved.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What they said is irrelevant. We get our doctrine from God’s word, not from the opinions of men.

Good Morning Pastor Jim,

I’ve heard this argument before and find it confusing, no offense is meant by this statement.

It is our opinion, the early Church fathers got their doctrines from God’s word, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

As you state, “We get our doctrine from God’s word, not from the opinions of men.”

How is the “we” in your statement different from the early Church fathers? Aren’t the “we” in your statement men as well?

There is no scripture that says one can lose their salvation.

I offer a few scriptures that seem to indicate salvation can be lost.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

2Ti 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Pastor Jim, personally I do not like discussions that turn into Bible verse ping-pong. I understand, you have read scriptures and have your own interpretation, whether that interpretation was private or formed by the help of those who believe as you do.

If you don’t mind, would you explain to me how the Bible went from individual letters and epistles to becoming one complete book as we have today?

Please do not take anything I’ve stated as an argument. This is not my intention. To have an honest discussion about the issues we discuss, we must understand each other’s view as fully as possible.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Sean_Boyle]

There is no scripture that says one can lose their salvation.

Mark 3:29 “Whomever blasphemes the holy spirt can not be forgiven.”

Scripture is very clear here and these are the words of Christ. It states whomever, believer or unbeliever. Christ never qualifies this statement to claim that he was only speaking of non-belivers.

No one cannot lose their salvation, agreed. But contrary to your theology, salvation is recieved thru God’s grace at judgement day, not before.